Avi Melamed: good afternoon and welcome to our second session. Very happy to have you all, of course, and very honored to have with us our distinguished guest, Mr.
Avi Melamed: Abdul Aziz Al-hamis. Later on we'll do some more formal presentation at this point. What I would like to do is to actually start our session. Our session today deals with the issue of nationalism in the Middle East in contemporary times.
Avi Melamed: As you may remember, in the previous session we talked about or touched a little bit on these issues of nationalism in the Middle East. And I would like to do today is sort of like just a reminder sort of speaking, just to refresh our memory a little bit about that before we delve into the discussion in our discussion today. So I'm going to share with you the the
Avi Melamed: the any presentation that we are going to see today. And we'll delve into. Just let me make sure that we all see that I just want to make sure that we all see the presentation. ______________________________________________________________________
Avi Melamed: So this is our session today. We are talking about nationalism in the Middle East. Let me just make it large. Thank you.
Avi Melamed: just as a reminder. You may remember that in the 1st opening session we talked about some components of identity, we talked about the issues of religion, tribe, ethnicity and geography as components of identity that always been major players in the shaping of the
Avi Melamed: of the of the region. And so at this point today, what I would like to do is to elaborate on that a little bit when we are talking about contemporary times, when we're talking about it in the context of
Avi Melamed: of the of the nationalism in the region in our times.
Avi Melamed: So as a last point that I want to remind us all in the context of the previous session. We talked about, for example, the fact that when Islam expanded and extended it absorbs different groups, ethnical groups. We said that most of the nations or the ethnic groups basically adopted. Islam.
Avi Melamed: Let's do, Major.
Avi Melamed: Religion, but kept their identity as a different segregated, separate ethnical cultural groups. We talked about Kurds and Turks and and Jews and Yazidis and Jews and Christians. ______________________________________________________________________
Avi Melamed: Yeah, it's always the challenge with talking about history and also dealing with technology of our times. Anyhow, going back to our conversation, you may remember that we talked in the previous session. We talked about how Islam expanded. We talked about the different dynasties, the Arab dynasties, and then we talked about. Of course.
Avi Melamed: the rule of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, which, actually, roughly speaking, was the point where we have concluded our recession, and actually that leads us to modern time, namely, the 20th century to our time.
Avi Melamed: already parallel with the declining of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. We are witnessing the growing entrance and infiltration of major
Avi Melamed: powers, both Western and Eastern powers to the region. The declining Turkish auto mind back then, already in the 18 hundreds, is declined as the as the ill men or the sick men of Europe. It's very clear that it's in like twilight zone. And those factors.
Avi Melamed: Russia, Great Britain, France, Austria, Italy and other are deepening their entrance and intervention and influence across the Middle East, as you could see already on on that map.
Avi Melamed: a very significant component. Towards the end of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, in the midst of the 1st World War, an agreement, a British French agreement, very famous, known to be by the name of the Sykes-picot agreement that actually refers to the split of areas of influence between the 2 superpower in the area mostly known back then as the Levant, also known by the name of Isyam, an area that is today actually consists
Avi Melamed: of states like Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Israel, the Palestinian territories.
Avi Melamed: And here in the front, in front of you, on this map, you could see the split of the influence between the 2, the 2 States. Actually, that's going to be the base for the system of the mandate that is going to be a couple of years later.
Avi Melamed: with the end of 1st World War to be adopted by the League of Nations.
Avi Melamed: the predecessor sort of speaking of what later on, going to become the United Nations which granted
Avi Melamed: United Kingdom and France the mandate
Avi Melamed: to rule those areas that used to be part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, and actually to prepare their people there for the time they could self-govern or self rule themselves.
Avi Melamed: This is the point, roughly speaking, where people of this region are introduced to the concept of national statehood which already is right there from the beginning is starting to create an enormous challenge.
Avi Melamed: because we all bear in mind the fact that for hundreds and hundreds of years
Avi Melamed: we people of the region actually lived under one big frame, an Islamic one. Whether it was in the frame of the Arab dynasties that we mentioned before the Umayyad and the Abbasis, all, of course, under the frame of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. And now, all of the sudden, in the middle of the 19th century, the 1,800 and the beginning of 20th century. More and more the people of the region are introduced to the concept of nationalism that emerged in Europe.
Avi Melamed: and this is totally alien concept for the people.
Avi Melamed: It is actually a structure that nobody knows exactly what does it stands for and what does it represent?
Avi Melamed: And right there there is a growing and evolving power struggle that is going to result. In, roughly speaking, 3 major ideological camp in the region that are going to compete, to struggle over leadership and and path ahead for the people of the region.
Avi Melamed: One camp is going to be known by the name of Qom, or is going to be known by the name of Pan-arabism. This is a camp that basically ideologically says that the common denominator of majority of the people in the region is their ethnicities, as Arabs
Avi Melamed: meaning their mother ton is Arabic and tradition, and so on. And therefore the common denominator of this ethnicity should be actually the defining of a sort of like Mega state entity. If you wish, that will basically bring all these Arab speakers as one under the frame of Pan, Arabism, or cow.
Avi Melamed: The other camp is going to be known by the name of Watania, a term in Arabic which means an independent nationalism. That is a camp that actually endorsed, or at least ideologically endorsed and and politically support the concept of an independent statehood, even though right there from the beginning it was quite unclear.
Avi Melamed: What exactly are the feature of such an independent statehood? What is its boundaries, and what is the common denominators, or the glues that bring the people together under the
Avi Melamed: flag of that specific state.
Avi Melamed: And yet again, it was a camp that emphasized, not pan-arabism as the common denominator. And yet, as the definer of a Mega entity, but rather a separatist independent statehood.
Avi Melamed: And the 3rd camp is the Islamic camp
Avi Melamed: which endorsed and vows for the concept of the Caliphate or the global Islamic entity.
Avi Melamed: Basically, we talked in the previous session about Islam and how Islam
Avi Melamed: basically does not separate between State and the religion and the Islamic camp of the of the
Avi Melamed: mostly represented by the Muslim Brotherhood.
Avi Melamed: the biggest mass movement in the Muslim Sunni world that appeared in Egypt in 1928 that Islamic camp actually rejected the concept of independent statehood, rejected the concept of Pan-arabism, but rather talked about a mega entity that its common denominator or its its spine
Avi Melamed: is the fact that it's based upon Islam as a source of both political governance and legislation, as well as a frame that dictates the life of the individuals and the community
Avi Melamed: based upon the Islamic religious codex rather known as Shari Allah.
Avi Melamed: So right there. What you see is from the beginning in the 20th century, and we could see that all across the century, all across the region into our time, is this power struggle between those different components which in each one of them was pushing and shoving to its own side.
Avi Melamed: and, and, above all, that remember, we still have the built in segregated sort of speaking, in a fractured structure that is going along the lines of
Avi Melamed: religion, a cultural, ethnic ethnicities, identities, geographicalism, and so on. So all in all. When you look at this whole components and you could see it illustrated in this picture in front of you, you see that it was almost impossible to create something that is a whole and cohesive.
Avi Melamed: The Muslim brotherhood that I mentioned before appeared in 1928 in Egypt, its founder, Hassan Al-bana, an Egyptian scholar and preacher actually vows the ideas of pan-islamic entity that guides people's life in every possible dimension. He emphasized different components in the belief.
Avi Melamed: One of the most powerful component was that his view that Islam is under attack by the Western power, and the whole idea of nationalism presenting a threat to the Muslim world and to the core of Islam itself. He emphasized the need to for educational preaching and hands-on activities in the society in order to bring people more and more into the camp of Islamic outlook under the
Avi Melamed: wings of of the Muslim brotherhood.
Avi Melamed: Right there, in the very early phase of the Muslim brotherhoods. There were seed of collision between the movement and its offspring later on, the different offsprings and the concept of statehood and the concept of sovereign independent statehood. This is a seed of collision that during the 20th century and in our time is going to result in a lot of tensions, and in some cases, direct collision
Avi Melamed: between the the camp of Muslim Brotherhood and its offsprings and the concept of national independent statehood
Avi Melamed: for a couple of decades, roughly speaking, between the fifties, the sixties. The concept of Pan-arabism was quite popular and dominating the discussion in the Middle East. Its most well-known figure and leader was back then the President of Egypt, Gamal, Abdel Nasser, who came up with a very interesting perspective
Avi Melamed: of pan-arabism that is not only based upon the concept of Arab ethnicity as the common denominator, but also was kind of like vowing for an interesting model of sort of like Arab Socialism.
Avi Melamed: a model that has been actually adopted by a couple of regimes in the Arab world, like in Iraq, like in Syria, like part in Yemen, in Egypt as well, and the peak of this moment, historically speaking, was between 1958 and 1961, when there has been an assembling of what is known, the United Arab community
Avi Melamed: that basically brought together Egypt and Syria, and to a certain extent, at some point also parts of Yemen, and that was a moment of peak where it seems as if Pan Arabism, the creation of semi-global entity, regional entity that is based upon Arab ethnicity is going to be really the path and direction of the people ahead.
Avi Melamed: however, very quickly, that whole concept actually declined, and basically to a large extent ceased to be a relevant player in this region. I would say, roughly speaking, since the late sixties, the early seventies.
Avi Melamed: So
Avi Melamed: one interesting fact that is kind of like, not emphasized enough, but should be emphasized is that the modern states that we see today across the Middle East have basically all established during the 20th century. They did not, roughly speaking, existed as a modern independent state, though there have been some sort of like local sovereignty, particularly in the case of Egypt
Avi Melamed: particularly, or in the case of Saudi Arabia, or in the case of Yemen during the Turkish time. But, roughly speaking, all those places in the end of the day did not exist as an independent statehood in the until the middle. Roughly speaking, of the 20th century. Interesting enough, the State of Israel that was established in 1948 formally was established 5 years after the State of Lebanon.
Avi Melamed: Lebanon was established in 1943. Syria also gained its formal and final independence around those years, Egypt as well, and so all in all. When you look at this region.
Avi Melamed: you see that the States actually appeared as a State formal state, as we know them today. Only around the half the middle of the 20th century, and some of them, particularly in the Gulf area, basically formally.
Avi Melamed: were established States talking about United Arab emirates and others that were formed as the States already only in the seventies. States, like North Africa, like Tunisia and Algeria, gained their independence in the sixties after they have been able to release from the rule of foreign Western powers France and Italy.
Avi Melamed: So all in all, when you look at the region, the concept of state within the region basically practically materialized on the ground only.
Avi Melamed: roughly speaking, around the second, the half of the 20th century.
Avi Melamed: When you look at the trajectory of the whole story of statehood in the Middle East, you could see that to a large extent you cannot really define it as a successful one. What it resulted in in the end of the day was mostly regimes that are either
Avi Melamed: dictator, brutal regimes.
Avi Melamed: All monarchies that ruled the people, though there has been, have been expression of semi, or partially or fully process of apparently democratization. It was far from really
Avi Melamed: fulfilling the full model of democracy as we as we know it so. There were, for example, aspects of participation in elections. There were elements of a multi-political party system.
Avi Melamed: but at the same time we also witnessed the situation where freedoms of expression, freedom of rights, freedom of political opinion, more than once have been very restrained, if not eliminated, in some of those places.
Avi Melamed: So all in all. When you look at the picture of this region towards the end of the 20th century, the beginning of the 21, st you find a very gloomy reality of many challenges across the region. And actually, what we have witnessed is kind of like a piling volcano that in the end of the day is going to erupt in a massive wave of protest across the region that is going to be known by the name of the Arab Spring.
Avi Melamed: And, by the way, many in the region call it retrospectively the Arab winter. Just the same. It has been an event that, sparked by a single act a horrifying act of protest and despair. This guy that you see in front of you.
Avi Melamed: Hamad Al-wazizi in Tunisia, a peddler, a young peddler from Tunisia, that in a horrifying act, burned himself alive
Avi Melamed: against the lack of future and hope, and that was actually the spark igniting what is going to become
Avi Melamed: the the Arab spring.
Avi Melamed: So
Avi Melamed: that has been kind of like a very generally framing our discussion today. And to that end we are very, very honored and thankful to have with us
Avi Melamed: one of the leading experts of the Middle East, Mr. Abdul Aziz Al-hamis. Let me, with your permission, just very shortly introduce the Mau Al-hamis.
Avi Melamed: He's a distinguished journalist, political analyst and media strategist, with over 40 years of experience covering Middle Eastern politics, Islamic movements and regional affairs.
Avi Melamed: having held top editorial positions as leading publications, such as Shark, Alsat, and Majalla, in Arab newspaper London. He has shaped the discourse on some of the most
Avi Melamed: pressing issues in Darw
Avi Melamed: as the host and producer of Niran Sadiqa. He continues to engage with key political and intellectual figures, offering political insights into the complexities of the region. His expertise in investigative journalism and strategic media analysis make him a valuable voice in understanding the forces shaping the Middle East today.
Avi Melamed: Mr. Alhamz.
Avi Melamed: thank you. Thank you for joining our program. We have about 45 min for a discussion. We are very much looking forward to your insights, and then, of course, come the part following that of the Q. And a.
Avi Melamed: So I would like to start with asking you the following question. We we talked about this failure of statehood in the in the region. We talked about the fact that in the end of the day, when you look at these 2 major ideologies that we mentioned
Avi Melamed: the Islamic Caliphate model, represented by the Muslim Brotherhood.
Avi Melamed: pan Arabism style, Gamar, Abdel Nasser, and independent statehood. We see there is a common denominator, and that is the fact that they have basically failed
Avi Melamed: to address the challenges and to offer the stability.
Avi Melamed: What can we learn from that in the context of identity.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think it's if we talk about 1st of all, thank you for
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: hosting me and this with this group. I think it's very important to have
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: good dialogue about identity and politics and geopolitics in Arab world. It's very important to understand
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: all of this, especially in this time, very sensitive and very important time. And we're facing a lot of problems in the region and conflicts and without understanding the roots of the problems and the roots of the societies. Arab societies. We can't study, and we can't understand what
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: will come in the future.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: This topic is matter. Arab world is diverse. Most of people, especially in Western countries. They think Arab countries the same, and there is no differences between the societies. There is no differences between policies and the politics and strategy plans, and they think it's they are same in their
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: policies, and they think they are same when they think about
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Iran, Turkey, Israel, and bit, and even to each
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: of them understanding identity and political challenges and alliances can help decode current regional dynamics.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: And we we should it taken.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: we should understand what's why October 7th happened, and what the roots of October 7.th And this is very important, because it's reshape the relationships within the region and with Israel, and reshape the future of Arab world and the future of Israel and the region. And we we see what's happening in in Syria, in Lebanon.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Yeah, it's came the change, because there is 7 October. There is Israel attacking and Israel attacking Iran. And they have a conflict bigger conflict. And it's affect the societies in the region affect the regimes in in the region, and give a lot of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: science.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: If
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: should be, we should understand. And we, we should define the identity of each Arab country. And how do historical and political developments shape intercountry country relations?
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: other thing? There is a big question about what role do secitarian and ideological divisions play in geopolitics, in the, in the region, in Arab world. It's very important to identify
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the identity in the Arab world and the mosaic of nations.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: And this understand how identity shaped, shaped by history, colonial legacies, religion, tribal structure, and economic models.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: We know there is a failing countries. And there is a other countries. They are doing very well, and especially in economic and prosperity. And how they
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: have a good societies. Very what we call peaceful societies, then those countries. So if we can consider this one, it's most of them. They are
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: not republics. They are king monarchies.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: And why this happening? We, when we go, find, like even Jordan, the Jordan, they have no oil morocco, they have no oil, but the other societies is more stable than Egypt, our
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: more stable than Libya and Iraq. They have a lot of oil, and there are very big exporters of oil. And we some researchers. They always say the oil is play a major role in the monarchies, and that's why they are stable society, because there's a
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: carote and stepped, and they have. They have. They put a lot of money in the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: in their society, and they buy the silence of their societies. There is no democracy, but there is a lot of money, and that's why they said, this is not true. It's we find Iraq, Libya, Algeria. They are very wealthy, they have oil, they have a gas, they have maybe more than the Gulf countries. But if we go to the roots of the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the the differences is we find it. It's in the identity
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: how those countries and Gulf countries and Saudi Arabia. They they understand their identity identity better than what's happening in Iraq, and they are stable because they have,
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: what we call more clear and identity. The roots, the historical roots, the tribal structure is more solid. But if you go to Iraq you have many identities. You have many races, many religions, and many challenges inside the society. If we go to Libya we find the same we have
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: what you call it regional challenges between the East and West, we find, even if they are the same religion. But they have differences. The tribal problems try regional problems. The the country is not
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: understand. They didn't create Libyan identity, solid Libyan identity, same like Iraq, same like Algeria
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Tunisia, even in Egypt, if they talk a lot about identity. But they have a problem to to create the what you call it. United Unity identity. There is many things that's
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: If we go to the Gulf States and identity. And we study. It's very good. We found that it's built on tribal legacies, economic transformation and monarchy. Who's caring about people who who are taking
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the the prosperity and the stability important for them after what they saw. What's happening to the monarchies in Egypt and Libya in Iraq, in Syria, and we found that it's very important to take care of the people and not ignore their demands and their interests.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: This is very important to to understand the identity in the region and we come found. There is a challenges and differences of challenges. And even if we, if we study how the monarchies versus the Republican in Arab world. How the Gulf States, like Saudi, Arabia and Uae versus
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Egypt and Tunisia, and political views
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: we come found in the diverse political systems, and they're embarked on identity. We found a secular nationalism versus Islamic governance
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Algeria versus who founded the Iran inspired movements and the rich oil nations versus the struggling economic
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: like. If we're taking an example, our study an example, uae versus Lebanon.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and we have a Lebanon, what they call the Lebanese. They they also proud of their democracy.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: but they are the most clear example about how country fail and how society in trouble, even if they have elections, they have the and they have a Democrat system better than Saudi Arabia, our Uae. But that's why we should understand how
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: how we should take care and identity in the societies and our world, and how there is a failed failed countries. And there's countries in our stable systems. And
Avi Melamed: So I would like with this point, Mr. Abu Hamid, I would like to ask you actually, when I'm kind of like, you know, in between the lines in the end of the day. One of the major thing that is is kind of like the discussion or the center of discussion is the issue of common denominator or the ability to create a common denominator or the lack of the ability to create a common denominator. And I want to bring to this discussion a very interesting player that we mentioned before, and to have your perspective. And I'm referring to the Muslim Brotherhood.
Avi Melamed: The Muslim Brotherhood. Major slogan is Islam is the solution, and, in fact, during the years of its operation the Muslim Brotherhood was positioning itself
Avi Melamed: is a very significant player. It has a wide base of support, it has popularity. It has a lot of hands-on involvement.
Avi Melamed: and however, when you look at the issue of the Muslim Brotherhood and the region.
Avi Melamed: particularly in the last couple of decades. You see that there has been 2 significant failures of this
Avi Melamed: ideology as well as a political structure. One is in the context of what happened
Avi Melamed: following the Arab spring, when, for a short period of time, for the 1st time, ever, a Muslim brotherhood government were forms in formed in Egypt and in Tunisia, but they didn't last longer, because very shortly after that they were ousted by the people.
Avi Melamed: and the other failure, of course, is the in the context of what happened in Gaza Strip that has been ruled since 2,007 by Hamas, who is
Avi Melamed: formally defining itself as the offspring of the Muslim brotherhood. Obviously, with all what we see today, the very dire situation Gaza Strip is following is in following Hamas, launching attack on Israel on October 7.th So the question I would like to ask you in the context of the Muslim Brotherhood in the region today is.
Avi Melamed: do you think that? It's going to further weaken the political attractiveness of this player? Or, ironically or paradoxically, it's going to increase it.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think it.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: After Arab Spring people, they discover a Muslim brotherhood experience and capacity of doing a lot for the people. They found that it's very weak, and it's they don't deliver what they promise before in their speech and in their acting, and the mosques and and and the schools they Muslim brotherhood and Arab world. They before they control.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: The education. In many countries they have a big media tools like Al Jazeera and Qatar, they have, a lot of banks and Switzerland, and then many Arab countries like in Kuwait. Mainly they have better Tamil, and they have a lot of tools to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: at least to shape strategy. But they failed.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: That's why we can see
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: people. And the most important thing, the social media. It's affect them a lot. It puts them front of the people, and their thoughts is very clear, and the people they they chat with them with their clerks and with their leaders, and they discover they are not well, not better than their government. Recent government, and when they rule in Egypt they
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: give very, very shine example, clear example, how they are a very, not
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: have big differences from Mubarak, and they are as they want the power. They want everything they they want to control the country, and they want to change many aspects in the country to make it more religious. They failed. And they
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: because I think it's not only if we see Muslim brotherhood even in Iran we we call them Ahwan, Shia.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Juan Sunna. They are Muslim brotherhood. But we know the Iranian leader, Khamene, even Khomeini, before they affected by Muslim brotherhood, by sayed Qutab and Hassan Al-ben books and thoughts and theories. But now, in this, in recent days, let us
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: observe what's what's happening. Now observe what's happening now in Syria, the new government in Syria there are Islamists, most of them. They are Islamists. They come
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: from the hts. They are a Islamic movement, and they are
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: part of Muslim brotherhood, and they come to the power now in Syria, but when they come to the power, they know that from their experience, what's happening in Egypt and in Syria, and sorry in Tunisia. We don't forget that they rule Tunisia for a time, and they bring Tunisia to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to catastrophe. And that's why the people those leaders are new in Syria. They want
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to improve their strategies, not to be more Islamists, not to be more Muslim brotherhood, to be open to the world, to be open to the liberal market
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to to improve
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the life in Syria, and to give good example of how Muslim people they can Muslim leaders. They can rule in a pragmatic way, and this is a good change, and we can observe it in how the Saudis and Uae, even Qatar, they and Turkey
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: they support this government, and they know exactly this government is not more Islamist. If it's more Islamist. Our Muslim brotherhoods, especially Uae and Saudi Arabia will not support it. But we see today the President of Syria and Riyadh.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and they they promised to have a lot of work with the. With this new leadership to improve. I think Muslim Brotherhood.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: As we know, it's founded in Egypt. And it's a very what would you call it? It's a political Islam.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: It's showing our political Islam act, and it's there is a mixed
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: views. Some see Muslim Brotherhood as a political movement, especially in Western countries. Some see them as a threat to stability and to the society because they're they have restrictions. And they have a lot of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Islamic dictatorship.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: And we, we see Gulf States, how they
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: see the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist group, and they have it in the law.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: They are a terrorist group in in Saudi Arabia and unite and U Uae.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: But we see Qatar and Turkey support them.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and we find there is no one position through toward this Muslim brotherhood.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Other thing we see how Iran supports Muslim brotherhood and
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: work with the Mp. We know Hamas Hamas is part of Muslim brotherhood, and they working as an agent and a proxy for Iran.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and they are
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: make a disaster in the region, and we always most of analyzers. They don't recognize Hamas as a Muslim Brotherhood group. They they try to avoid this.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: We we we should care about how
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: how Muslim brotherhood is against the reform and stability in the Arab world, and how their their history is very bad for the Arab before the Arab Spring people. Some most a lot of people in Arab world, they think, especially in public opinion. They think. Let us try political Islam. It will be better than those
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: marshals and generals who run these countries, and they tried them in Egypt and Tunisia and Libya, and they found them disaster more than the generals they ruled before, I think.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I will not say Muslim brotherhood will come back strong our. If they come I will see them in Syria. They come in different shape.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: with a new face, with a pragmatic more.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and they will try at least to improve their what you call it strategies and theories to become more liberal than before, because
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Arab society is changing a lot to become more liberal.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Thanks for the social media. Thanks for the education, improving of education in the in the Arab world, and I think it's
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: those Islamist groups. They will. They will suffer a lot to stay in power only if they change their strategies and become more liberals, or they will disappear in the future.
Avi Melamed: So I want to kind of like
Avi Melamed: take another angle when we are talking from this, like, you know, 50,000 feet, and looking at the region.
Avi Melamed: And I want to talk about the story of Israel and the region. Now that we talked about the these big ideologies and the interaction between the ideologies and the failure
Avi Melamed: and the end of the day of those ideologies, either the calm or the Muslim brotherhood, or the independent Statehood. The Watania.
Avi Melamed: When you look in the context of Israel in the region
Avi Melamed: you obviously mentioned before, obviously a very significant pivotal moment. This is October 7.th
Avi Melamed: Something that will shortly discuss, and from a different perspective. But before that I would like to ask you about
Avi Melamed: In that context, the following question, when you look. Roughly speaking, in the last 50 years. One of the interesting development in the region is that
Avi Melamed: in the eyes of some major players in the region, Israel became more and more effect on the ground was manifested in the fact. There is a peace agreement between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan. I would even mention the Israeli Plo Oslo accords. And of course I will mention most recently the Abraham Accord.
Avi Melamed: So you referred earlier to very significant moment that October 7 in its ramifications. And one of the interesting thing that I think everyone is interested to know is about the issue of
Avi Melamed: the trajectory of Israeli saudi rapprochement or trajectory ahead. And here I want to to focus the question around the issue. The following issue, when I look at the messages coming from Saudi Arabia, I find that there is kind of like an ambiguous.
Avi Melamed: a message. It's not so much clear, because one message says
Avi Melamed: the the condition for an Israeli Saudi rapprochement and peace is implementation of the Saudi Peace Agreement proposal, which was formally adopted by the Arab League.
Avi Melamed: which talks, of course, about two-state solution Palestinian State, which its capital is East Jerusalem. This is one message, and then there is another message coming from the Saudis, that I hear that says the condition for moving ahead is a substantial progress towards
Avi Melamed: settlement of the Israeli-palestinian conflict. And my question to you, what do you think? One of those 2 perspectives which one of them, you think, is more going to play significant role in shaping the policy of the Saudi leadership vis-a-vis, the issue of Israel in the foreseeable future.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think it's
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Before 7 October
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: there is a progress, and there is a plan to go to normalization of the relation between Israel and Saudi Arabia, and there is a lot of hope, especially from the Israeli. But the Saudis, they can't ignore the public opinion, and we should know Arab public opinion, and especially Saudi, public opinion.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and 7 October, as as I. We know it happened because the progress of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: talks between Saudi and Israel and Iranian. They want to stop it, because if there is a normalization of relation between Saudi, Arabia and Israel, it will.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: it will change, hold the region.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and it will change a lot of things, because, as we know, Saudi Arabia is the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: our most powerful country in the Arab world. In economy and in politics, and they have Mecca and Medina, and they are the heart of Muslim world, and if they go with the peace with Israel there is no barriers, and there is no obstacles
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: for the other countries not to go to have a relation with Israel, because Saudi Arabia already have.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: But we, if we consider what will happen in the future, and I think the Gaza wars affect
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: this one affect because it's happened, and the reaction from the Israel from Israel is very harsh
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: is increase the public anger in Arab streets and even in Saudi Arabia. That's why the the Government, it will take care of their public opinion. The people in Saudi Arabia, the anger they see. They saw that the TV every day there is a killing houses destroyed children and women they killed in this, in their homes in Gaza. That's why they call
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: calling the activities toward the peace. But until but after now, I think with the the trump administration we will go back again to the table, and we will see the especially if there is no new wars.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: We will see the improving. And I think Saudi Arabia will play a major role to have a solution for the Palestinian and Israeli conflict.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: We. We can observe what's happening in Riyadh the last days there is a visiting the visitors coming from America and from Palestine, from Ramallah, and they try to solve the problem, try to have some strategy toward the two-state solution
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and the Saudis. They not say, the state the two-state solution should be happening tomorrow. No, but at least there is a plan that will bring the Palestinian and Israeli into a deal. And
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the Saudis, they they. They will work, I think, to toward this one with trump and with the Israeli Government. If it's
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Netanyahu or the new government, they they hope there is a new government, more liberal government. It will give a lot of hope for the peace.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Other thing, the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the Saudi, the the good thing. I think we if we can observe what what's happening, the relationship between Egypt and Jordan and Israel, it's a cold peace.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: It's not
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: a real what you call it peace. But if we observe with the Uae and Bahrain and Morocco with Israel relation, we found that it's more active
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: in people and in public, especially sphere, and in Saudi Arabia it will be more, because, the economy, the relation with Israel, it will help Saudis to to improve their diversity of the economy. It will open the gate to Saudi, exports to toward Europe through Israel.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: It will open not only for Saudi, for Uae, for Qatar, for other countries and Gulf countries to to cooperate with Israel, to to reach the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: European markets better than now. Other things, Saudi Arabia. They have a big projects not far from Israel, new and other projects, especially in Red Sea.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and the stability and safety of Red Sea is very important for Saudi Arabia and for Israel, and we can see it in the future. They work together
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: as we.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Here. There is a lot of improvement, especially after trump coming, and I think it's Saudis. They have no problem to go toward the peace and relation with Israel. Only if Israel give
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: a commitment to 2 state solution.
Avi Melamed: And that kind of like. Bring me to my concluding question before we'll open the session to the questions of the fellows you mentioned. Trump you mentioned Gaza strip. And here is something that is right now happening in the Middle East, and it's kind of like in the center, I would say of an interesting discussion, and I would love to have your perspectives and thoughts about it.
Avi Melamed: As you probably know, President Trump offered suggestion to temporarily relocate Gaza, people in Arab states in Jordan, in Egypt, and and that resulted in a very strong pushback, actually a formally one. Yesterday there has been a joint statement
Avi Melamed: of Jordan in Egypt, in Saudi, Arabia united Arab Emirates and the Arab League.
Avi Melamed: who who rejected that that that idea now.
Avi Melamed: in in the discussion in the Arab world. There is something very interesting that I detect, and I would love you if you could elaborate on that a little bit.
Avi Melamed: Those who who talk about in favorit of this idea are basically saying, this is an individual right of people in Gaza. In fact, there are people in Gaza who actually saying out loud, they say, we want to live. We want to go elsewhere. We want to maximize our right to pursue happiness and better future. But those who are opposing that
Avi Melamed: both within Palestinian camp as well as in the region, are talking about the concept of Sumud, Samidun.
Avi Melamed: and meaning we are sticking to the land. So to speaking, we are digging our hills to the ground, and we are holding our ground.
Avi Melamed: and I would like, if you could try to reflect to us the the dimensions of this dilemma or debate within the Arab and the Muslim world. Why, why does the Arab leaders actually reject
Avi Melamed: the idea of taking care of the Palestinians from Gaza. Given the dire situation in Gaza.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think they regret what they did in 1948 and 1967, when they accept the Palestinian immigration
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to to their countries, and they think it's it will affect the Palestinian cause.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: And
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think, is the Palestinians suffer a lot because they moved from inside, from their villages and their cities in Israel in the 1948, before 1948, and after to Gaza and most of Gaza people, they are refugees, and they are immigrants. They came, they've
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: afraid, and they come to Gaza, and they have their camps in Gaza and the Arabs. They don't want it to happen again
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to their countries, and it will affect especially the Jordania, Jordan, and Egypt Jordan. They have a lot of Palestinians, and they have a big problem with them. We can we see it? What's happening in in Jordan and after 7 October? How the protest, how they threat become a threat to the kingdom and to the King system, and in Egypt they are afraid from
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: what you call it the Palestinian to occupied Sinai and and they they know they know if they open the borders most of people in Gaza they will leave to other countries. They, as you said, they want a good life they want.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: They suffer a lot in Gaza. But Arab
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: not only Arab leaders, Arab opinion, they want to have a solution for Gaza people, and to let Gaza people to live in their country with the, with a good life and with the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: peace and prosperity, and they don't have a problems. But we know if Hamas control Gaza, we'll have a problem. And they now talking about to have a new forces, and especially from Arab countries and European countries, and U.S.A. To control Gaza with the Palestinian authority. But we we found it is very hard to have this, because still Hamas
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: acting in in Gaza, and still the people.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: if you understand Gaza Gaza is like a shire tribe tribes.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and every family or Ashira big family a branch of the tribe. They have their loyalty to Hamas or to Jihad, or to Fatah.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and most of them they have a loyalty with the Islamists, and they think the Islamists they will help like Hamas. But after 7 October, and after what happened during this
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: year and a half, I think that it will. They discovered it's not.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: There is no hope. They are same. They suffer same like what the Egyptian people and Tunisian people and Libyan people. They suffer under the rule of the religious movements, and I think that if there is a solution
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: it will help to let the Gaza people to stay in Gaza, but with a new regime, with a good regime, with a peaceful regime, and with the support from the world, especially Arab world, to to have a good economy to have to build, and but nobody will come and help, especially Saudi, Arabia, or Uae or
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Kuwait, without removing Hamas from the power, because they think it's same like in Lebanon. If we see we can. In Lebanon they come to help in Lebanon, but they put some terms. 1st of all, they don't want Hezbollah to become in the Government our to have a power in the government.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: After that they will come to help Lebanon with the especially Lebanon economy. And in Gaza it's same.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: If there is Hezbollah's Islamic movement, we say always the radical Islam. Political Islam is behind all of the problems in Arab region and behind. There is why there is no relation with Israel. There is no normalization with Israel and the Western countries. They don't discover what's the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the threat of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: political Islam and Muslim brotherhood, especially only after what happened in 7th October before 7 October. They finance them. They support them politically they recognize them as a group.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: but in Saudi, Arabia or Uae they recognize them as a terrorist group. And now it's become clear. Uae and Saudi Arabia more right and more accurate about Muslim Muslim Brotherhood movements and their proxies in the region. And I think that's why.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: if they not work together to remove Hamas from power in in Gaza it will continue the problems we will. We will suffer a lot in the future.
Avi Melamed: First.st Thank you so much for your insights and perspectives. I can tell you that we could continue our discussion. I have many more questions that I would like to ask you. But at this point.
Avi Melamed: as promised, I want to give the stage to our fellows to address you, and to present their questions.
Marty Zigman: Can you hear me?
Avi Melamed: How do we.
Marty Zigman: Yes. Can you hear me?
Avi Melamed: We can hear you. We can't. Yeah, we can see you now.
Marty Zigman: Oh, okay, well, I we could let a fellow go if you wanna.
Avi Melamed: Go ahead. Well, Rihanna, and you have well, and then Rihanna.
Marty Zigman: I appreciate the conversations with our distinguished guest. I was trying to stay true to the title here around nationalism. And so I want to ask. I want to ask a notion, and it could be my. It's probably my ignorance and my and not really understanding. But I've been. I've been told that this region, historically, has been held together by clans which are like large families.
Marty Zigman: and thus my instinct tells me that if
Marty Zigman: if we were to let go of the concept of nationalism as we sort of, as we understand it in.
Marty Zigman: say, the Western world. If clans were to emerge
Marty Zigman: and express themselves, would it not? One sort out in due course?
Marty Zigman: It may be it may take some time, and would those not become small little nations, perhaps, but could a it could some sort of stability emerge as people sorted it out themselves without the pressure of external forces trying to make them become something?
Marty Zigman: Let people let people sort it out which which we need to. We would need to be patient. I'd like to just understand that in the context of a possibility, and then what it may mean for the concept of nationalism, at least at the world stage. Is that a reasonable question.
Avi Melamed: Malti Abdullah, I hope that you heard the question.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Yeah, I'm talking about the the.
Avi Melamed: Yeah, I just want just want to make a short comment. Since we have your insights and perspectives raise a lot of interest, a lot of questions I would like if you could possibly do it shortly. So everyone that has a question could make the question. Thank you.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Okay.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: if I talk about the nationalism in Arab world, I think it's there is a lot of changes, especially when you talk about. There is a
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: a country specific country, because there is a difference differences between. If we, if we see nationalism in Egypt or I will see it in Saudi Arabia there is a big difference.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and the other thing we find in Saudi Arabia the tribes play a big role, but in Egypt no, there is no appearance as tribes, only maybe inside in the South Egypt.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Other thing is even in Saudi Arabia that we found it. Now we found. Now we can observe now how the tribes become more the shrinking their power.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and the Youngs they what call it engaging in the civil society more and because and they are far away from the of from sticking in the tribes structure
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and the other countries same in Morocco. There is no tribes as a bigger power in the region or in Morocco. And some countries in in Libya we found the tribes. They
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: play a major major role, that the nationalism is is not only what we call it.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: same, you can. You can specify same in this country and all Arab world. Every Arab country have their
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: copy of nationalism, especially if we talk about
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: what then? The nation we call it Al- Ummah Al- ummah is not, only they use it the Islamist even than Arabism. Arabism. They use it the Pan Arab, or they think about it Nasrin. And they think about as a very important in their activity. But now
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think it's there is a reduction of the power of nationalism in the in the region, the only one, I think it's in the nationalism of the Arabism.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: but in they
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: now more local. They think about their hour. They are more busy with their local issues and local cases. They don't think about problems in the other countries, or maybe sometimes with what's happening in Gaza, because it's a war, and but in the other countries they don't care what's happening in Libya or in Syria, and
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: they are not like before in the sixties or seventies when there is more Arabism in in the Arab streets, because the the new countries and there is a after the colonialism. They they, they have a dream to become one country. But now I think it's not like before. There is
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: not a lot of Arab, especially the new generation. They don't think about
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: unity, Arab unity. They think about their country, their interests.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: how to to gain a lot, how to build a new country with a new system, and there is a big change.
Avi Melamed: Thank you, Miranda.
Miranda: Hi, thank you so much for this talk. This was really educational. I think my question might be a bit more about my personal experience. But since you are so well versed and have been a leader in their media sources, and also being in a Western country in London
Miranda: and reporting news out of the Middle East. I wanted to ask if the word genocide is even used. If there's a word for genocide in the Arab media in the Arab world. It's a big buzzword here, especially with the Palestinian situation, and I wanted to ask if that sentiment around that world word, if it's even used in Arab media sources, or if it's even talked about. And this question is inspired by when you were talking about
Miranda: Saudi Arabia having to be having to respond to the public sentiment on the streets, and what is being seen on TV and heard in social media?
Miranda: Was I on mute the whole time.
Avi Melamed: No, no! We heard you.
Miranda: Oh, okay! Alright!
Avi Melamed: I think he's thinking.
Avi Melamed: hey? Good,
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Yeah, I I think it's an Arab media. There is
Avi Melamed: Okay, hold on.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: A lot of views of genocide, a lot of criticize of Israel activity in Gaza. And it's not new. Every war or every conflict. There is a lot of the Media Arab media start to what you call it.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to guide the public opinion. Our sometimes I can
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the the public opinion guide the media and the public opinion. Arab public opinion, especially the locals. They guide them, and the Muslim Brotherhood and radical Islam. They use those conflicts to gain a lot in the in the streets and in the public sphere, and they try to use all of the wars and the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the pictures, the videos of what's happening in Gaza to to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: in their what you call it in their conflict or their war against their governments, local governments, not against Israel.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: They they try to tell people see your governments as a very weak can't do anything to help our brothers in Gaza.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and they use it politically, and they use it emotionally, and they try to affect the credit and of the government, and they try to benefit and gain out, especially after what happened in Arab Springs. Gaza. Conflict has become. It's come for them
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: as a gift to to come back to the political scene and to to come back as a
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: what you call it, as a.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: as a as a movement, who
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: talk on behalf of the people, and they use it for them. And that's why the governments. And if we can see all of the media agencies in Arab world belong to the governments and supported by governments. And that's why it's like a race between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Government to use Gaza conflict
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: when there were to gain a lot in the public opinion.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Rihanna.
Raihaana Adira: Thank you so much for joining us. I know it's super late, and this has been super insightful. You have a very impressive resume as a journalist, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the legitimacy of the media in the Middle East, especially with news coming out of somewhere like Gaza, where a lot of journalists
Raihaana Adira: do have ties to Hamas, or there's been allegations of certain journalists holding people hostage, and I was kind of wondering if you could discuss that a little bit.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: In the Arab media tools. They failed
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: through. What's happening in Gaza? 7, 7 October conflict, and they all of them. They try, as I said before, they race
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to to be against Israel and against and become more
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: try to benefit from Gaza and from the the media, content
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to become and to attract the people. But we can see there is a Al Jazeera. They are Muslim Brotherhood voice, and they show more and clear, and after 7 October, how they are a mouth of Muslim brotherhood. In the other side we found, like a Arabia or sky news who try to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to balance. But they can't.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: They can't be become more accurate, especially, and especially if we see what's happening. 7 October. How they, the massacres. They did Hamas people whereas when they attack Israel they attack the villages and the kibbuts, and not single
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Arab media tool
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: cover. What's happening in 7 October in the beginning. In in the 7 October day, they not single one of them. They are very brave
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to to show pictures, or to show how Hamas or what Hamas did, and they
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: they used by. They try to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to justify our try to some of the Arab tools. Only voices Arab like one in Egypt, one in Saudi, one in Kuwait, one in only single voices, but the tools, the the media tools, the media, satellites, channels, and others. They fail to to show the full picture.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and they try not to.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: They they don't cover it in very what call it in the facts. Very well. They they're afraid from the public opinion and the Muslim Brotherhood. And there is a lot of criticism from the Muslim Brotherhood to the media, even if they say they say a little bit of our some of the facts about what's happening in 7 October. I think it's this is, it's not new.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: And if we can see, even in the not only in the media, even in the with the politicians, Arab politicians, and they
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: no, no one of them criticized 7th October, and what Hamas did, maybe only one is a Crown Prince of Bahrain in double I double S.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Meeting in Bahrain and some in Uae, but most of them they try to defend Hamas. They try to to be with Hamas, because they afraid from their people, and they afraid from Muslim brotherhood propaganda tools, and they afraid from to criticize out as a Israeli agents and Sahaina, as it what they said in Arabic, Sahaina
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and the Muslim Brotherhood start to attack everyone who who just talk a little bit about Hamas, and we can see some videos in Arabia or sky news or sub channels. Talk about our ring. Some Gaza voices against Hamas, but not fully, not
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the cover. The coverage is not
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: accurate, not what you call it. Right media.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: It's more mostly afraid from Muslim brotherhood tools, our working with the governments to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: not to criticize Hamas our criticize Hamas, but criticize Israel more.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Tamao.
Tamar Weiss: Hi, Mr. Alkamis, thank you for speaking to us. My question has to do with something we were discussing earlier, which is Trump's suggestion to relocate Palestinians in different Arab countries, and that they've kind of refused to absorb them.
Tamar Weiss: but that, like countries like Saudi Arabia would agree that the eradication of Hamas would help the Palestinian people, and that is a good solution. Possibly, if it were to work, but
Tamar Weiss: from the media that I've been exposed to, and from what I know they haven't
Tamar Weiss: put in any effort towards the eradication of Hamas, it's like a war that Israel's fighting on their own, unless that's something that I just haven't been exposed to, and that they have been in efforts to help get rid of Hamas in that region, and if it has to do with what was previously discussed in your last answer, which is that they're just fearful of the Muslim brotherhood. Is there nothing they could do to combat that fear, even though they're the most powerful country in the region, or what other efforts could be taken
Tamar Weiss: by these countries if they really want to help the Palestinians in Gaza and in the region.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think the Saudi Arabia will not accept
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: immigrant or remove people Palestinian people from Gaza. It's very simple. It's some that's 1 of the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: basics of the Saudi position is not to support Palestinians in their land, not to remove them from their land
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: but support, but the support should be to support them, to have a good country, and to have a good rulers. I think Saudi Arabia make a pressure on the Plo and the Palestinian authority to have a reform and to stop corruption, and they think about what's happening in Gaza. So they should work with the Americans and with the other Arab countries to to have a stability and to have peace in Gaza.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: There is a lot of signs. There is a hard work to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to give the Israeli and security, and to give them more
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: what to call it peaceful stability in the in Gaza, through removing Hamas from the power.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think the the world and the future. It will be between
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the Palestinians, each and between Plo and Hamas.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and as we heard about the president of Palestinian authority, he working hard now to to come to Gaza with his troops, and with this and he start controlling the Rafah
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: border
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and the future. I think it will. The American and the Saudis make a lot of pressures on Abu Mazen to act more in in Gaza, and we can see if the Egyptian they support this. It will help a lot
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to to have a stability in Gaza without removing people again and again.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Bahesh.
Bahij S.: My question is in regards to national identity, specifically in Saudi Arabia. What is the importance and significance of shifting the narrative between a coalition of Wahab and Ibn Saud to now just focusing on Ibn Saud for the founding of the new democracy of Saudi Arabia.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Again. Sorry I don't hear you.
Bahij S.: What is the significance and importance of shifting the narrative between the coalition of Abdel Wahab and Ibn Saud to now just focusing on ibn Saud, for the modern state of Saudi Arabia.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Yeah, I think.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: when Mbs coming to the power, he changed a lot in Saudi Arabia. Even he touched the identity of the Saudis. He played major role, to rise the Saudi identity, to unite the people in Saudi Arabia, and to concentrate on the diversity of the economy, and to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: give the Saudis more power, especially Dallah women rights. I think the woman rights in Saudi Arabia is better than a lot of Arab countries now and
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: we, we can see this. How how the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: he improved the civil rights a lot. He improved the economy a lot. He stopped the corruption. He reformed many aspects in the society.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and he give the absolute
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: family, and that's rule more respectable and more, and help them to to stay in the power more than before. If we can
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: see in 2,011 and the 12, th they assert family, they suffer a lot from
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: not a with not major rules like what's happening in other countries, but at least the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the the public opinion about their attitudes toward the wealth of the country. There is a lot of corruptions, and there is no major projects or something to to help the economy to be diverse.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: And Mbs.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: He came with a plan 2030, and he changed a lot, and he did a mini
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: projects and help and give a hope for the Youngs, especially the employ. The jobs
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: woman now is playing. I think 40% of the work power in Saudi Arabia. And this is more than other country Arab countries.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and they give them a lot now more and more education improved, and the health sector and other things, and Saudi Arabia is now is one of the biggest 20 country in the Arab world. Sorry in the world. They have a big budget. They have a big investments and will fund they have a big projects. And
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: they that's why they are a major power in the region. And I think, with the peace with Israel, it will. It will give a lot for the region, not only for the those 2 countries.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Alia!
Aliya Zigman: Hi, thank you so much for coming to speak. It really means a lot. We talked earlier about how countries who lack deep national identity are failing in the Middle East, and I'm wondering if you could discuss a bit about what Palestinian national identity kind of consists of, and like the ideologies of what
Aliya Zigman: Palestinian, like identity means.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think the Palestinian. They have a very big problem, especially for their identity as a united between the West Bank and Gaza.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and but still they they they share the same
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: what you call it miserable life. They
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: they share the freed, the the hope of freedom, and they have their own country, but still they have a big problem of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and their identity how they will act
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: toward the peace with Israel, how they will accept the existence of Israel, how they will
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: identify them as a
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: not a Mujahideen as a people. They look for a good life and peace, peaceful life, and this affect them a lot to to have a very good identity and strong leadership even, and we can see many
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the other thing that that affect their identity is they have no history of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: of work. what do you call it? Nationalism as a Palestinians.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and we know the the Palestinian identity is created after 1948, before 1948. They have.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: They know they're not sharing anything. They are part of sham what you call it a sham big Syria.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and they as a part of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: of Syria. And even we know exactly when the the King Faisal
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the King of Syria, when he created his country
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: by help of the British, and he fighting against the French
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and and the Turkish, and he removed the Turkish from Damascus.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: He always talking about Al-quds, Jerusalem and Palestine as a part of Syria, and not not independent.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and we know that sucks because,
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: exclude Palestine and Lebanon from and Jordan from Syria. It's a history, but it's
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the identity. The Palestinian identity suffer a lot from the lack of the history, the lack of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the lack of the the strategy of the future.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Thank you.
Miles Isaacs: Hi! It's nice to be joined by someone who knows London. Well, I'm not sure if is in London now.
Miles Isaacs: but I am from London, I'm speaking, from London. I had a question about something that you mentioned.
Miles Isaacs: Towards the end of your talk, which was about about
Miles Isaacs: Mbs moving closer towards Netanyahu, but on the on the on the condition that you said only if Israel gives a commitment to a two-state solution, I didn't know what that meant. What a commitment to a two-state solution meant. I wondered if you could expand more more on that.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Yeah, I said, that's the 2 state solution.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: It's not only Saudi demand. And it's even United States and Europe and most of the countries in the world they believe in. 2 state solution.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: our to state as a solution for the conflict. And in the long term strategy. We we found it. It's the only solution for the future. We suffer a lot from the temporary solutions the deals is not
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: like a Oslo deal. Does it not survive
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: other deals that the peace, even between Egypt? Our Jordan, is not
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: warm enough, is not helping people or helping the economy, if even for the 2 countries
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the the commitment is meaning is the. There is a map for the future
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: with help from United States and Saudi Arabia and our abroad, it will and Israel to work together to have 2 State solution
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: who will provide the security for Israel, and provide the prosperity for the Palestinians and the stable country, and.
Miles Isaacs: Just if I could jump in there. That's quite a hard thing to achieve.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Okay.
Miles Isaacs: I mean you have. You have. The Gazans and Hamas were financed by financed by Iran.
Miles Isaacs: on a side note. Iran seemed to be
Miles Isaacs: Iran embedded in in my country in the Uk. Here they're embedded in a lot of the Middle East. It's all well and good saying that you can have a two-state solution. But in order for that to be of any
Miles Isaacs: malleable effect, you have to remove Iran from the equation and eliminate the mindset within Palestinians that they need
Miles Isaacs: to wipe Israel off the face of the map.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I think. Yeah, I agree with you. Iran is the most threat to any solution in the future, but we can see after what and we can say thanks for Netanyahu and Israel what they did in the region
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: lately, and we can see the benefits in Lebanon or in Syria.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and we want to see it in Gaza.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: But I, as I said this, the hostages problem is is affected. The the activities
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: toward removing Hamas. And I think, after the hostages problem solved, and the last hostage
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: with Back to go back to to his home in Israel. There is, there will be a a plan to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to be harsh against Hamas. I think I think even the trump with the the visit of Netanyahu to Washington. It will
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: bring some strategy for the future
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: of Gaza and the remove of Hamas helping under the U.S.A. And Arab world, especially Saudi, Arabia and Egypt and Jordan, will work hard to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to bring some solutions, for, because I can see it from the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: movement of the American Ambassador in in the region, and how they act toward not only a temporary solution to long term solution, and to give the Israeli and some
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: what you call it commitment, and the taking from Israel. Other commitment toward the 2 States. Israel want the security more more than anything, and I think if the Arab world, especially Saudi, Arabia and United States and European EU
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: come to find a solution on the land and the ground. They will help a lot.
Avi Melamed: We have 2 more questions left, Eli, and then the final question will be Jason's. Eli, please.
Ilai R.: Hi, thank you for speaking for us today. I'll try and keep it short. A lot of the questions have been oriented around the journalism in the area and that you've interacted with. But I'm curious about how your own journalism has shifted, if at all, just given the shifting political landscape like, have you actually changed certain practices? And have you moved away from any.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Yeah, I think it's
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: The journalism in in the region is affected, as I said, by no freedom of speech.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Mostly the the the media tools they are under
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: threat from the government and finance from the government. You can't find
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: any independent media tool in the region, and that's why we can't find
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: A good environment of dialogue, especially toward the threats in the region Israel or Iran, our
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: turkey, or even between the Arab world. There is a lot of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: movement from the media traditional media tools to social media.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: And I think social media
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: now suffering even of the threat of the laws inside Arab world. And the free speech is suffering a lot, and there is no hope. I can see the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: there is a lot of
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: most of the governments. They are afraid from a free media, and they think media is very dangerous, and especially the social media. And they
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: they think about what happened in Arab Spring. It's happened because the Facebook
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and the photo of the Tunisian man
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and himself, and how the Government were very harsh in that time in Tunisia, and I think still there is a
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: more what you call it
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: more of the many Arab government, or maybe all of them. They think about media as a
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: a tool, they should use it, not to let people to use it.
Avi Melamed: Thank you, Jason. The last question.
Jason’s iPad: Hi just wanted to thank you again for coming and speaking to us. So my question for you is today, like we've talked a lot about the Muslim Brotherhood and their upbringing and looking at Hamas as an organization and as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. I wanted to ask your opinion on the policy document they released in 2017, and, like kind of like, I guess, put off the image that they're trying to liberalize and almost like sever their connection to the Muslim Brotherhood. I want to hear why you think that they did that and kind of your thoughts around that.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Yeah, I remember this policy. It's
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: In that time there is 2 wings inside Hamas, one of them. They want to make Hamas more peaceful and more civilized
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: movement, political movement to to get the approval of the West.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and though this wing is supported by Qatar and Turkey.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: and I think Khaled Michelle behind it.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: I will lead it and other and even smiled honey.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Other wing by Yahya, Sinwar and Khalil Haya and others. They are
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: against this, and they think about themselves as as militia, and they supported by Iran and
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: this sinwar. He won the game in the end, because he's in Gaza, not Khald, Mish Al or smile, Henia. And
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the problem is, they are Muslim brotherhood, and usually Muslim brotherhood. They don't mention themselves as a what we call Akhwan.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Hwan is meaning Muslim the the brotherhood
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: they try to give themselves as many names like they they hiding
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: behind the nicknames? Not but most of them. They are a Muslim brotherhood and Muslim brotherhood. Not only in Gaza, they are in Kuwait, they are in Qatar, they are in Oman, they are in
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: in Tunisia and Algeria. They are very strong in Algeria and in Morocco, but every group they used different identity.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: They have, but only they united. If there is a conflict like what's happening in Gaza when it's happening within Gaza, they working together
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: as a media, especially in social media, and they the
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the other, the the those in Muslim, in Hamas, those who try to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: to moderate the group moderate the the militia, to try to bring them to to be be, to be a political party, not a political Islam militia. They failed, I think, and they suffer a lot. And that's why we
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: we. We find the results is what happened in 7 October. Because this swing lead by Yahir Sinwar.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: He ruled Hamas and other leaders. They are outside in Doha hotels.
Avi Melamed: At this point. First, st I want to thank our guest, Mr. Alhamis, for a very valuable and significant insights, sharing with us his many, many years of experience and knowledge hands on
Avi Melamed: in the region. If you, Mr. Alhamz, would like to have some concluding notes, you're very welcome.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Thank you very much. I think it's if we we should. As I said in the beginning, we should concentrate on understanding every society in Arab world as a unique and not like the others. We not look to the, we say Arab world. I, even I, meet with a lot of leaders. They don't like us when we say Arab world. They said nothing. There is no Arab world.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: There is Algeria, Morocco, Sudan, Egypt. Every country have own problem. Own plans, own targets. Own challenges and obstacles. And that's why we we even if we come to Lebanon and Syria, we found there's differences in the and there are
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: us
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: challenges. That's why, in, when we try to understand the identity in Arab world, we should consider to understand the society, how the society structure.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: how
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: the race is important, or the religion the tribes. There is many things we can study any society with it. If we use a good tool, we can understand the society, and we can understand how to
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: talk to those people, especially those who, working in the media or working in a politics, they should understand every country by its own
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: shape.
Abdulaziz Alkhamis: Thank you very much for hosting me.
Avi Melamed: Thank you so much again for your excellent insights and significant perspectives.
Avi Melamed: As we are heading towards concluding this session, I will just shortly. Talk about our next session. Next session session number 3 deals with our issue. That, in fact, to a large extent, is almost integral. Part of the whole issue of identity and nationalism that we talked about. And this issue that we are going to talk about next week
Avi Melamed: is about the rise of the challenge of militant Islam
Avi Melamed: in the region. Our guest speaker next week will be Mr. Jassie Mohammad. Mr. Mohammed is the head of the European center for counterterrorism and intelligence studies in bon
Avi Melamed: Germany. And I'm very much looking forward to this discussion
Avi Melamed: again. I want to thank you for your participation. I want to thank our guest, Mr. Al-hamis.
Avi Melamed: for his wonderful significant insights. I want to thank you for your thoughtful and thoroughful questions.
Avi Melamed: and I wish you a good week until our next time. Goodbye, and see you soon.
Avi Melamed: Bye, bye, thank you.