Avi Melamed: They else have.
Avi Melamed: By the way, would. What a what zoom seems to be doing is adding all these AI things on also, which are making a little bit more complicated for us. So anyway. Okay, all right, I'm gonna hand it over to Avi. Sorry that we're a couple of minutes after the hour. I just I didn't anticipate the recording issue. So Didier. We're good.
Avi Melamed: Yeah, we're good.
Avi Melamed: Avi! You're up.
Avi Melamed: Hello! Good afternoon. Welcome to Itme. Fellowship. 4th session that today is discussing a very major
Avi Melamed: regional player and very intriguing one, I would say, and this is Turkey.
Avi Melamed: Just as always. In our sessions we always kind of like start with a short reminder of what we did before, and, as you may recall, the previous session was about
Avi Melamed: a militant Islam, we had a
Avi Melamed: a guest speaker and the head of the center for counterterrorism in Europe. And today, as I said, we are talking about Turkey.
Avi Melamed: our very distinguished guest today is Dr. Hai Itanko and Yana Rokak, a specialist on Turkey. Of course, once we'll start our discussion, I will formally introduce Dr. Hai.
Avi Melamed: So we are going to talk about Turkey, a major regional player. Obviously we discussed Turkey earlier in our sessions, particularly when we talk about the whole issue of the Turkish Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Ottoman Empire legacy and its enormous impact on the trajectory of the Middle East
Avi Melamed: for hundreds and hundreds of years. You may recall that when we talked about nationalism in the Middle East, we reached to the point where the starting point of the discussion of the issue of nationalism in the Middle East. Our second session, if you may recall. Actually the starting point of that was the end of the story of the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
Avi Melamed: Following Ww.
Avi Melamed: One. Here you see some id of Turkey, roughly speaking, as you see, an enormously significant player, a major state, 85 million people sitting traditionally in a very significant locations. The bridge, physically speaking, between Asia and and Europe sitting on a major water routes that actually connect the eastern basin of the Mediterranean
Avi Melamed: and other areas. And I would not stay long on that you could later on see, of course, this whole details in front of you on the appendix, as part of this presentation
Avi Melamed: as a framing for the discussion. I would say something like that when when you look exactly now, 100 years.
Avi Melamed: more or less, roughly speaking, at exactly 100 years since the end of the Turkish Ottoman Empire formally.
Avi Melamed: and the establishing of modern Turkey
Avi Melamed: in between during that period of time. One of the major characteristic of Turkey is a very turbulent political process that has been reflected more than once in A, in a coup and counter coups, and taking over of power by the army, and so on, and so on.
Avi Melamed: but not less significant. I would say, when I'm thinking about Turkey, I think this is one really of the fewest places on this earth. When I can think about in such a gap of 100 years.
Avi Melamed: you will find something so interesting and compelling, and that is the fact that, roughly speaking, 2 people
Avi Melamed: actually plays an enormous role in the shaping of modern Turkey.
Avi Melamed: And, roughly speaking, there is sort of speaking like a hundred years gap between the 2, the 2 areas.
Avi Melamed: The person that you see in front of you.
Avi Melamed: Kamal Ataturk, Ataturk, is the the father of the nation of the Turks actually is the one that following Ww. One is, is shaping to a large extent for the upcoming decades.
Avi Melamed: The the features of Turkey, the the
Avi Melamed: the idea, I would say, roughly speaking, of Turkey, that is going to be dominate one for years to come.
Avi Melamed: And basically it was very interesting, because Ataturk actually took Turkey from a place where it was. Of course, this mighty empire, and then, basically, of course, shrinking and actually kind of like introverting into Turkey, and accordingly also adopting
Avi Melamed: couple of like guiding codes of his upcoming policy. What has been known by the name of the 6 Arrows Doctrine.
Avi Melamed: And when you look at that, you could see that again, it connects to our discussion. He is taking Turkey to the place of nationalism.
Avi Melamed: It's not about the Caliphate anymore. It's actually part of this growing discussion of nationalism, republicanism, and is leading an enormously far reaching reforms in Turkey to the to the point. Actually, Turkey by definition, becomes
Avi Melamed: a secular and a secular state. So this is a very interesting point in time when the making of the modern history, particularly when you look almost a hundred years later to our time.
Avi Melamed: and you are going to reach this person
Avi Melamed: er Erdogan, the president of Turkey. In fact, he has been holding different positions before becoming President. He was the Mayor of
Avi Melamed: of Istanbul. He was the Prime Minister, and then for the last couple of decades he actually holds the power in his hands in Turkey, and he actually
Avi Melamed: shifted, I would say dramatically, the trajectory of Turkey, basically, once again, to a large extent
Avi Melamed: emphasizing or reemphasizing the Islamic aspect of Turkey, which has been all the time there. Now, this is an enormously intriguing process. One of the things that we'll probably, of course, try to discuss today, and with our distinguished guest trying to understand this dramatic shift.
Avi Melamed: because that dramatic shift has to say a lot about the many layers
Avi Melamed: of Turkey in the modern time.
Avi Melamed: and interesting enough, while we were talking about Kamara Taturk, and he's kind of like introvert focusing in in restructuring Turkey in a nationalistic concept.
Avi Melamed: When we look at Erdogan, actually kind of like totally going to opposite direction, basically going out proactively, leading, initiating a very proactive, some would even say aggressive regional expansion policy, something that we'll also discuss
Avi Melamed: and in with with our with our guests.
Avi Melamed: And so these 2 figures in a gap of a hundred years basically are kind of like showing this enormous distance that the turkey took in modern time. And actually, where it's it's kind of like.
Avi Melamed: have some problem.
Avi Melamed: So we have some problem with the
Avi Melamed: I do apologize. There is a noise here.
Avi Melamed: Can you hear me?
Avi Melamed: Can you hear me.
Avi Melamed: You can hear me.
Brooklyn Tory: Cam.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. So I was talking about the gap between Ataturg and Erdogan. The distance that Turkey has been going through during that period of time and the dramatic changes when you look at in terms of concepts and leading this enormously significant, significant nation.
Avi Melamed: when you look at the
Avi Melamed: guiding lines of Erdogan. It was very interesting to see how, in a very short period of time, relatively speaking, starting at the early 2,000,
Avi Melamed: the early phase of this
Avi Melamed: regional aggression was kind of like labeled by 0 conflict policy. Turkey is going to become friend with all the region. That's not what happened on the ground. Practically speaking, in fact, the totally opposite happened on the ground. One of the things that we have witnessed during the last couple of decades
Avi Melamed: since Erdogan actually became Erdogan became a President.
Avi Melamed: Was this repeating? And I would say, increasing
Avi Melamed: friction between Turkey and and regional players between Turkey and Arab. Major Arab states like Egypt, Saudi, Arabia, and united Arab emirates. The ambitions of Erdogan to position itself as the leader of the Sunni camp in the Middle East was definitely not welcomed by Arab major Arab leaders in the region for obvious reason, for obvious reasons.
Avi Melamed: but not only with them. With Israel. Once a very significant strategic partner of Turkey. In the last couple of decades there has been an increasingly souring of the relationship between Turkey and Israel, which, not surprisingly, one of the major focal of that process was the story of the Israeli-palestinian conflict
Avi Melamed: in the last couple of years, given to an enormous, significant, particularly significant economic challenge in Turkey. What we saw was that there has been some sort of like a period of softening the tension between Erdogan and mostly the Arab States. We saw this rapprochement in the relationship between the 2. It was very clear that Erdogan is kind of like taking step back.
Avi Melamed: And we saw some sort of like a resuming honeymoon between the those players, and to a lesser extent in the context of Israel. But now, in 2025,
Avi Melamed: we are kind of like, maybe on a verge wolf.
Avi Melamed: Starting again, this cycle of tension
Avi Melamed: and that, of course, has to do with the most recent dramatic development in the region. So here you see, very shortly kind of like milestones in the story of Turkey in the last century. I wouldn't stay on that. You could later, of course, later on. Look at that. And I would like at this point, since we have a lot of things to discuss
Avi Melamed: to turn to our guest, Dr. Haitan Cohen, Yano, Ok.
Avi Melamed: Dr. Haitankoyna. Narokok is a Turkey expert at Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and security. JISS.
Avi Melamed: And the Mushedaran Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies, Mdc. At Tel Aviv University.
Avi Melamed: He received his Phd. From Tel Aviv University's School of History, and his lecture there, as well as the Ben Goyon University of the Negev and Aria University.
Avi Melamed: Dr. Cohen is the editor of the Turkeyscope insight on Turkish affair.
Avi Melamed: In May 2015 he was awarded the Dan Davis David Prize scholarship in the category of past retrieving the past historians and their sources.
Avi Melamed: is the author of the Evolution of the Turkish school textbooks from Ataturk to Erdogan, published by Lexington, Roman, and Littlefield. In September 2022.
Avi Melamed: Dr. Etan. Dr. Hi. Welcome. Thank you for joining us. We are very excited to have you.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Thank you very much for having me on this distinguished platform. Thank you.
Avi Melamed: And so I would like to start with some simple question.
Avi Melamed: what what is the reason for the change of the way that the name Turkey has been written. This is a relatively recent
Avi Melamed: recent change.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: It's a nice nice start. Okay? This is a, you know, because of the turkey bird.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I assume that all of you know what is a turkey bird is? And since the anti-turkish guys in the West are making fun of turkey with the turkey bird.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so they decided to take a precautionary, let me say.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: a precautionary move, a precautionary decision that they turned the country's name into Turkey, which is the Turkish way of saying it.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So. They are trying to educate the masses so so that the others will not going to use this Turkey bird
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: metaphors to humiliate the country. But you know something funny in the Turkish language.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: What? How do you say? India.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Hindistan? And the word Hindi is for Turkey bird again, so they are using it
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: for another country, but when it is their country, so they changed the name.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: By the way, also, in Hebrew. It's the Hodu Hodu is the Turkey bird for India.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so I don't think that the Indians are bothered with it, but it's fine.
Avi Melamed: Right. It's good to go, and it's good to know I'm very glad about it. And, by the way, talking about the pronunciation I will share with the students the fellows. A couple of days ago, when I had a discussion with Dr. Hai in preparation for this session today, I was talking about Eldogan
Avi Melamed: and Dr. Haye told me. Actually, he said, you shouldn't say Erdogan, you should say Erdogan.
Avi Melamed: and so I bring that first, st because I've learned from him because I used to pronounce his Erdogan. So now I know that you should pronounce Erdogan. This is kind of like a side note of like showing that there is always a place and space for learning.
Avi Melamed: So I want to.
Avi Melamed: I just I just this framing, which is, of course, very general, but it really intrigues me, because again, when you look at the modern story of Turkey from Atatur
Avi Melamed: to Erdogan, and you see the in-between dramatic turbulences that Turkey has been going through.
Avi Melamed: Roughly speaking, if I try to to summarize it, I would say something like that
Avi Melamed: not so long ago, and I'm talking about a couple of decades. Turkey was formerly a secular state
Avi Melamed: by definition.
Avi Melamed: By the Constitution. And and now it's clearly becoming
Avi Melamed: an Islamic affiliated, or, let's say, the more Islamic aspects of Turkey are kind of like very at the front dominant.
Avi Melamed: What is?
Avi Melamed: How do you explain this process?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, I think it's turned into a more conservative state, but on paper it is still considered as a secular state. You know, the Constitution remained.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and the clause in the Constitution also remained so on paper. This country is still described as a secular state, but, as you said, within the last 2 decades Turkey has turned into a very conservative, and
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: let me select an Islamist, a country.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: but I think we cannot ignore. We cannot ignore the theoretical backgrounds. I would like to provide you a background about that.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Maybe you are familiar. Maybe you are not. But in the Turkish history there is a very important theoretician called Ziagokal.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: who was a member of Parliament in the 1st Turkish Parliament, and I'm going to quote now the founder of the Republic Mustafail Ataturk, he said my biological father was, and my intellectual father was apologies. My biological father was Ali Reza, and my intellectual father was Ziago Karp.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So the most important principles that were initiated and vaccinated into the Turkish nationalism were all designed by this guy, and he introduced 3 important pillars for the Turkish nationalism. These were turkification, Islamization, and modernization. Let me summarize it for you, and then you can understand why I'm mentioning it and how it is relating to today's Turkey.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: According to the 1st pillar, the turkification the Turkish people should understand and internalize that they are not Arabs. They are not Iranians, they are ethnically Turks, who speak the Turkish language. Therefore they can have, you know, brotherly relations with the other Turks in other geographies, such as Northern Cypriot, Turks, such as Azerbaijani, Turks, such as
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Kazakh, Uzbek, and and Turkmenistani, Turks, etc. The Central Asian Turkic States.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: On the other hand, we had this second pillar, the Islamization.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: accordingly, while we are aware that we are Turks. At the same time we should be aware that we are Muslims. Okay, that was the second important idea. But we should not let Islam to assimilate us into the dominant Arab Middle Eastern identity. Okay, we had to coexist with Turkishness
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and Islam, and the 3rd pillar was the modernization.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: despite the fact that ethnically, we are Turks and Muslims, we should also not forget that in terms of civilization we belong to the western world. Okay? So when we are getting these 3 pillars, I'm looking at them
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: as like a Dj's mixer. Okay?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: When the founder of the Republic, Mustafa Kemal gave so much importance to the turkification
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and modernization, and he neglected. And he neglected Islam. So he made an emphasis on both these 2 pillars
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: okay
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: on Turkification and modernization. Today's president. He is neglecting the modernization in the brackets, the westernization and focusing instead on Turkification and Islamization. Okay? But still
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: both Ataturk and both Erdogan. They are not obliterating the 3rd pillar, but they are diminishing it. Okay? But
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: still every Turkish decision maker
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: made slight changes in these 3 mixers in these 3 equalizers. Okay? And from from Dj. To Dj, from president to President, we could see the significant changes.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: when we are looking at Turkey's factory settings. We cannot say that Erdogan is playing is not playing the game according to the rules of the game. Still, according to Turkey's political culture, he's playing the game accordingly.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: but he is weakening Turkey's secular culture.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and when you are looking at at the Turkish history at large, like, let me say, like 800 years of history.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: And why? I said 800 years, because more or less.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: since the creation of the Ottoman Empire from 1299 until today, more or less we had 800 years.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: This secular culture
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: is a is a very short of time, is a very short time, and that particular time can be considered as an exception in this whole large picture. Okay.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: as many advance supporters like to tag this. They see it as a commercial break in a you know, very long movie. Okay, this
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so long story short. Yes. Within the years
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: we began to see a very clear, a very clear religionization
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: of Turkey. In also I can see this in day to day, in, on daily practices. For instance, I'll give you a very concrete example
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: when I was a little kid.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: when they wanted to integrate a new place, they were bringing a red tape.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and with the Caesars they were cutting the red tape, and they would say, You know, congratulations.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: you know, you know, it was a very secular way of celebrating, I think
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: today they are still bringing the red tape and the scissors. But at the same time we are praying together. Okay? And when we are cutting the red tape, we are saying, Ya, Allah! Bismillah!
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, so
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: we are still seeing that the people are with a tie, maybe human, with a longer skirt, but still with a skirt, but at the same venue, very civilized people, seemingly very Western, but still they
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they cherish this more conservative way of life. It also reflects on the you know, on
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: on the shelves, in the supermarket, for instance, when I was a little kid on many products, there were no warnings regarding the you know, in Israel we have kosher.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and in Turkey, the Turks. They did not have halal. Okay, but in today's Turkey, many different products they have on the products the seals of halal. When I was a little kid there was only
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: very small, with with very small letters. It was written that our products do not include any pork or something like that.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: But today it is becoming more and more institutionalized.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: And I think this is very much this
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: very much related to to the current Justice and Development party of Mr. Erdogan and his religious agenda, and he is using the directorate of religious affairs of Turkey to pump religion into the social
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: into social media, into the social, into the public sphere. You feel the presence of religion in every aspect of the society. Once upon a time it was not like that.
Avi Melamed: So that brings me inevitably to the next question, and that is, you've been talking about those pillars of modern Turkey, and I would say that? Well, apparently it seems to me like Erdogan actually added a pillar, and this is what some people refer to in the name of the Neo-authmanism.
Avi Melamed: So what is what is that? What is it standing for?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay. So 1st of all, what is Ottoman Empire? The Ottoman Empire really was a very important world power from 1299, and until on paper 1922, it disappeared.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: And it's basically
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: governed in 3 different continents at the same time. And, of course, as the successor state of the Ottoman Empire in 1923, right after the Turkish War of Independence the Republic of Turkey has emerged.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and during the 19, let me say, like 19 eighties, and there was a new. There was a new
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: socials phenomenon in Turkey that people began to glorify the Ottoman past in a very, you know.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: You know it. You could feel you could feel you could feel the the public glorification in every aspect, and it reached its climax. Let me tell you, in 1999, when the so-called celebrations were for the 700 years of the of the foundation of the Empire. So
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: even before Erdogan, the Neo Ottomanism began to rise, but of course, after his 1st
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: 10 years in the office, it reached to its climax. If if we have to make a definition of this worldview. It means that we are looking at the of the map. We are looking at the map.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and we are seeing the old territories, where once upon a time, the Ottoman Empire once ruled
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and we are trying to revive the Turkish influence on the same territories where the Ottomans once ruled. Okay. So when we are looking at the most expanded borders of the Ottoman Empire, we can see the Balkans, the Caucasia, Middle East North Africa. Of course Eastern Mediterranean was considered then as a kind of mare nostrum of
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Like the Roman Empire, right? They refer to the Mediterranean. The Eastern Mediterranean is a Turkish lake.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: long story short, under Erdogan, Turkey wants to revive its political influence in all the Territories where once upon a time, Ottoman Empire had ruled. Okay. So in today's turkey.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: you know, when we are looking at the Middle East, they saw the Arab spring as a very important opportunity. As you all know Turkey is a Sunni state. I assume that you're familiar with this term like Sunni, like Shiite, right? So Turkey is ethnically Turkish.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: but the vast majority of the people in Turkey they are Sunnis.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and when we are speaking about
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: neotomanism, of course the Sunni Islam is an inseparable component of this identity.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and Erdogan, since he is also very much influenced by Muslim brotherhood identity of Pan Islamism. So he's merging
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: now Ottomanism, like the you know, the Turkish glory, the Turkish Imperial glory, together with the Sunni identity of Islam. He's merging it. He's synthesizing it. Okay? And then serving it again into the Middle East and trying to influence the Arab spring accordingly. Okay. So during the Arab spring, we all witness that Erdogan
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: did support the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, also the Syrian opposition which recently toppled the Syrian dictator. Bashar. Al-assad, let me tell you, maybe we're gonna maybe you will. You will ask another question on this topic, but I assume that you are all familiar, that today, under Erdogan, Turkey turned Syria into its new
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so-called province.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Maybe you are familiar that the new president, the so-called President of Syria, Ahmed Ashara. He is a Turkish proxy.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and so the Turks, after you know, 402 years of domination in Syria they are back in Syria.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay? So
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: from Turkey's point of point of view, the current Turkish existence in Northern Syria. Maybe you are familiar, or maybe you are not. Since 2016, Turkey actively occupying the northern portions of land in northern Syria.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the Jarablus, Canton.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Afrin, Canton, Tel, Abiyad, Ras el Ain, all of these cities that they are located on the Turkish-syrian border are occupied actively even today by Turkey. But if you're going to ask a Turk or the Turkish media, they would say that they are not outsiders like the Russians.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: but they were the true owners of this land, since their grandfathers, you know, ruled the ruled. All of these countries.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, so I'll give you another, you know. Funny. But you know, good. Foretold
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: another you know thing that I encountered also on social media, and also I double checked it with my Turkish friends who are living in Turkey. They said. You know, when you're look, when you're going to the airport.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: You're looking at the chart of the flights like the departures or arrivals.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and there you're seeing so many different cities on the international Terminal, like Sofia, Athens, Belgrade, Budapest, Tel Aviv, Cairo, Tripoli, and what else? Baghdad, Damascus, Riyadh, Jedah.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: okay. And etcetera. Etcetera. Why, I mentioned all of these cities, because this guy is saying that once upon a time all of these destinations.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: you know, we're supposed to be on the chart of the domestic flights.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, of course, in the Ottoman Empire we had no airport.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and of course, obviously we did not have any domestic flight, chart or screen in in an airport, but they are thinking that when they are looking at
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the screen of the airport of the International Terminal
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: You know half of the destinations that we are seeing on the on the screen, in their opinion, supposed to appear in their own domestic flight
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: terminals.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, you know, food for thought, because when they are looking at, you know, at the map they are saying, you know Greece, Greece, you know, until yesterday they were, you know, they were dominated by Turks, Bulgarians, Serbians, Hungarians, Croatians, Slovenians.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: okay. Albanians, Montenegro.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay. And you know this is a historic fact. But you you cannot deny it. Egypt
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and Libya.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: You know Algeria, Saudi, Arabia, Israel, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, parts of Ukraine, Romania.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: All of these territories were once upon a time, you know, governed by the ottomans. So when you can, when you are aware of this, you know glory, and when you are seeing that your borders shrink dramatically into today's turkey
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so under Erdogan, as Erdogan says.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Turkey is greater than Turkey. You cannot imprison Turkey within its own boundaries, he said this sentence only 2 or 3 weeks ago.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, it was not quoted from last century. It was not like from 19th century Ottoman leader, but it is today's Turkish President said the same sentence, and I would like to provide you another concrete example if I'm not mistaken. He said that right after the fall of Assad in Syria, he said, if the World War one ended in a different direction
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: in parentheses, which means that if the Ottomans were not defeated in the 1st World War in 1st World war. Then Aleppo? Hama Homs, and Damascus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and Idlib. We could all name these provinces as Turkey's provinces, he said.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So why is it important? Because
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: when we are talking about Syria, you know, until you know. Recently, also, right after Assad's fall.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Also, Israel had to get into Syria and had to occupy strategically important spots
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: to secure its border to this unknown jihadist.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: A new state, you know. Maybe the Western people in in Europe or in the Us. Maybe they would like to believe that when a jihadist wears a tie and a jacket, he may turn into a civilized statesman. But in Israel we are not buying this. You know. Comedy show.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, El Giulani. Until 2 months ago he was an Al Qaeda Japhat Al Nusra Hayat Tahrira sham terrorist.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: but since he received a new tie and a jacket brand new from Turkey.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So if you want to believe that he turned into a civilized, you know Western pro-western friendly politician, so go for it. But I'm not. I'm not buying it. Okay. So Erdogan, looking at Syria, he does not see himself as the occupier.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay. But he sees Israel as an occupier, and since he sees himself as the owner of the place, and since he sees Ahmed Ashara as his puppet governor.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: he speaks in the name of
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Ahmed Ashara, the puppet governor of Syria, and he's saying that the Israeli occupation in recently occupied portions in Syria.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: The continuation of this occupation will have devastating consequences for for the entire region, he said, and let me be frank with you, Avi and dear friends, if Israel will going to withdraw from the recently captured Syrian land.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Then Erdogan will begin to criticize Israel for
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the so-called occupation in the Golan heights of you know that Israel took control in 1967,
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so it will not end there. So the most important distinction between.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: let me say, Turkey and Russia
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: is because of this neotomanism. Russians did not look at Syria as their own territory, they only
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: exploited it. They only tried to take advantage of their existence there. But the Turks. They do see Syria as a part of their homeland.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and therefore.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: unfortunately, in the long run, it may create a very significant friction with the state of Israel between Turkey and Israel.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So this is more or less Neotoman is reviving Turkish influence in the previously dominated areas by the Ottoman Empire.
Avi Melamed: So what you said about the recent statement by Erdogan that says that Turkey will not be confined within it's it's bigger than Turkey, which is very interesting. It's recently new, and I will. I will associate it almost inevitably to the
Avi Melamed: the recent, I would say, defeat or weakening of a major rivalry of Turkey, and this is the Mullah regime in Tehran.
Avi Melamed: And now
Avi Melamed: Now, when when we are looking at the region, I could indicate a couple of arenas where we could see this pro aggressive
Avi Melamed: Turkish behavior, like, for example, the eastern basin of the Mediterranean, the friction between Turkey and Cyprus and Turkey and and Greece
Avi Melamed: over the whole issue of the of the of the gas in the Middle East, in the eastern basin of the Mediterranean.
Avi Melamed: you mentioned that Turkey has been actually practically occupying parts of North Syria. I would add that Turkey also occupies parts of North Iraq. There is a military presence of Turkey in Northern Iraq.
Avi Melamed: So there are a couple of focal points where Erdogan is clearly in each and every one of those places or or issues is kind of like, very much proactively, and trying to exhaust
Avi Melamed: different cards, to to manifest its expansion vision.
Avi Melamed: And one of those places you just, of course, mentioned very accurately, Syria. There is another interesting recent example, very recent example.
Avi Melamed: and this is Gaza.
Avi Melamed: But this is coming from a different perspective, and I would like to. I would love to have your your thoughts about it.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay. A couple of days ago.
Avi Melamed: The the leader of the opposition party in Turkey.
Avi Melamed: I think you pronounce his name is Oglu Oglu.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Double to all them right.
Avi Melamed: He he used to be once the the Foreign Minister of Erdogan.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Also he also served as Turkey's Prime Minister, not only Foreign Minister.
Avi Melamed: Correct.
Avi Melamed: So he made us, and he.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: How's the.
Avi Melamed: Statement following President Trump's.
Avi Melamed: I don't know how to call it Id, or thought about relocation of Gaza
Avi Melamed: vision, and he said, he said that. Well, he said,
Avi Melamed: Gaza should become as some sort of like a sovereign.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Urgish, pro-protectorate.
Avi Melamed: We'll get to rate. And and since, he said, since the recent
Avi Melamed: nationalities or citizenship of Gaza people is their affiliation to the Turkish Ottoman Empire, they should be associated with it.
Avi Melamed: So
Avi Melamed: why do I say that? Because, first, st it's interesting for itself, but second, because Erdogan has been constantly playing the cards of the Israeli-palestinian conflict and the story of Israeli, particularly in the context of Gaza.
Avi Melamed: But now it's the leader of the opposition party that says that
Avi Melamed: so? Is everyone going to ride this wave.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: 1st of all, let's introduce this so-called opposition guy. He is on paper opposition, but in terms of ideology he is like Erdogan, and maybe he's even more radical than Erdogan.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: His name is Ahmed Davutol. He's a history professor. He has written a book called The Strategic Depth.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: He argued that improving relations with the State of Israel will create a burden for Turkey, and instead, at the expense of its relations with the State of Israel, Turkey should deepen its relationship with the Arab states. Okay, this is the more or less the summary of his book. Of course, this is also considered as the manifest for the Turkish Neo-thomanis.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So you know.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: when we are looking at this neotomanism, of course, what you, the the example that you provided us about Davutol.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I think it is reflecting more or less the public sentiment in Turkey, especially after fall of Assad
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: after fall of the after fall of Assad, there is a euphoria in Turkey. Many people are very much, you know, exposed
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: to many different. You know media coverages that you know they are.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: they are providing many different many different media coverages.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: emphasizing the relationship between Ottoman, Turkey, and the land of Syria. That particular land belonged to the Ottoman Governor X, and that particular land belonged to the Turkic tribe Y, so they would like to mention that they are not outsiders. They belong to the geography. So
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the example that you provided with Gaza and Davutoglu, you know. Maybe some of the Turkish Liberals and secular people would laugh at such a statement.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: But I think, unfortunately, I tend to believe that maybe like 50 to 60% of the Turkish people may buy such a statement because of this neo Ottoman euphoria. They see that they see themselves as the most powerful state that can really change the all strategic.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: all strategic picture in the entire region. And when we are looking at Turkey. It's not only Syria or Iraq that you mentioned. It's something more than that. Okay, let me again point out for you the most important venues that during the last decade Turkey began to penetrate in a very aggressive manner.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Of course, 1st of all, let's focus on the vicinity. Since 1974 Turkey occupies Northern Cyprus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they have approximately like 40,000 soldiers, more or less.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: You know, Turkey's Turkish soldiers on the island, and in addition to that, like approximately 10,000 Cypriots, Turkish soldiers are on the island, of course, heavy weaponry. And the fleet and tanks, etc. Okay on Cyprus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: as I already mentioned, 2016 in Syria in 2019, in Northern Iraq
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and Turkey also intervened in the Libyan Civil War. In 2019
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: they signed a maritime delimitation agreement with the Government of national accord of Libya, and in order to safeguard that particular maritime delimitation agreement, they decided to intervene in the war in Libya, so that they could
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: preserve the city of Tripoli, so that they're
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: their maritime delimitation. Agreement with Libya could survive, and as a result we began to see
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: enormous shipments. Many, many shipments that were dispatched from Turkey's Mersin port to the port of Tripoli, and to the port of Misrata Turkey sent unmanned air vehicles. Turkey sent many armored vehicles, including heavy weaponry, including anti-air
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: defense systems, including its own professionals. I assume that you all heard about Russian Wagner Company.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Turkey also has its own Wagner company, called Sadat.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: They recruited hundreds and thousands of terrorists
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: from Syria, and they sent them to Libya. They used them in Syria, and also they even sent them to Nagorno-karabakh during the last war between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Of course, to support Azerbaija.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Long story short we are when we are looking in Libya. If
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: there is still no peace in Libya, and Libya remains a divided country, it is because of Turkey's intervention, because otherwise the city of Tripoli was besieged and could fall within days. But because of Turkey's intervention they could resist. And now Libya has turned into a divided country
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: from Libya. Let's go to south a little.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: There. We have the Sahel region in Sahel. Only last week Turkey integrated 2 new bases in the country called Chad.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Chad is a very important country because of its uranium uranium sources. But it's not only Chad. Last year in July Turkey signed a cooperation agreement on energy with the country called Niger
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Niger is also considered as a very important manufacturer and producer of uranium. Why, we are making this emphasis on uranium, because
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: in 2028, Turkey's 1st nuclear reactor will be fully functional.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they are receiving their uranium from Russia.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: But they do not want to rely on Russia 100%. So they are also trying to maneuver
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the African nations, and they are also penetrating in the Sahel region, and the last, but not the least.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: We also have Somalia
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: in 2011, when all of the countries were escaping from Somalia because of a Shabab terrorist organization. Turkey was the only country that began to invest and inaugurate an embassy there. There they provided many, many different humanitarian aid. You know many, many different foundations.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Ngos and many other Turkic, Turkish philanthrops began to donate lots of money to Somalia, approximately, Turkey invested in Somalia almost a billion dollars.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and there,
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: In 2017, they integrated their largest army base outside of Turkey, and recently they also signed a defense agreement and again an agreement for cooperation in energy sector. They sent their systemic drill ships
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: to the offshore of Somalia to look for natural gas and oil, etcetera, and besides that, in last December, Turkey also began to integrate, began to build, construct its 1st missile, launching facility in Somalia. Why would you
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: build such a facility in Somalia?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Because when you are going to launch
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the long range missiles for tests in Turkey. So many people, I mean many countries in the neighborhood would protest against you, and would tag you as an aggressor. Right?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: All of your vicinity are surrounded with many different countries. In the Mediterranean. You will not be able to do such a thing in the Black Sea, you know, when it's a short range or a middle range missile, they still do it. This they still do. This tests in the Black Sea.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: But when we are talking like long range missiles or intercontinental
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: missile testings, they would all. They will all be conducted in Somalia. Okay? So they will all be launched to the ocean, and no country will be threatened. Okay, so long story short, when you're looking at this big picture. Turkey is in Cyprus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Syria, Iraq, Libya, Niger, Chad, Somalia. Let us also not forget Sudan, and also not forget Qatar. Turkey also has a presence in these countries and in Qatar they
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: they provide security
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: to the the leader of Qatar. Maybe you are familiar from the news that Qatar and Turkey. They are like one plus one. Whoever gets Turkey get Qatar for free, or whoever gets Qatar takes Turkey for free right one plus one.
Avi Melamed: That's an interesting.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Yeah. Yeah. So let me tell you. Then, why, in 2017,
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: maybe you all remember, Qatar had very bad relations with Saudi Arabia, with Egypt, with the other countries, and all Middle Eastern Arab countries, began not to collaborate and cooperate with Qatar, and they laid sort of a siege. They closed their air.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: a
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: all of the flights were halted, etcetera, and then the Qataris were very much concerned that Saudi Arabia could launch an invasion similar, that. What has that? What they did to Bahrain? Maybe you are familiar.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and if you're not so, please be familiar. During the Arab spring and the Saudi Arabian army
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: invaded Bahrain because they thought that if a Arab spring could come to Bahrain, then Iranians could have a bridgehead in the Arabian peninsula, so it created a precedent and examples.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So when Qataris
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: began to be sieged, let me say they were very much concerned that Saudi Arabia would launch an invasion.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and to deter Saudi Arabia, Turkey integrated, and a military base, and, according to the Turkish news outlets, the Turkish special forces began to provide security to the Emir of Qatar.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so that as a result of this military Turkish presence in Qatar.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the Saudis were deterred, and no such a invasion did not took place in Qatar.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So in return, in return to this security that Turkey provided to Qatar.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Qatar, is also providing economic security for Turkey with its investments.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: if the fragile Turkish economy. If the failed Turkish economy did not collapse, it's because of Qatar.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So with, we have great expectations of Erdogan.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and all of these great expectations are supported with the Qatari money.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they have this ideological Muslim Brotherhood
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: ideological bond. So they have the ideological bond. They have also interests, common interests. I provide you the security, and you provide me the economic security.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So this is more or less Turkey. So Turkey, as Erdogan said, is not only Turkey within its boundaries. As you can see, it's a it's. It is an expanding.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so-called, friendly state, a member of NATO.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: But it's not like a typical friend, a typical member of NATO.
Avi Melamed: So just
Avi Melamed: so before we just open this session to the questions of the Itme i 1 last question, because we could have talked for hours. But I want to ask this question, but, if possible, just to answer shortly. So we'll have time for the students to.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Of course.
Avi Melamed: Look, it's very clear. I mean, we are looking at the giant in the region. The combination of, you know, expansionist style, imperialistic ideas and Islamization, and the fact that Turkey has an enormously military might all those things together. Of course, I don't think that they basically
Avi Melamed: precursor to something positive. If you try to put it this way, we could expect Turkey to be, maybe the new instabilizing axis of this region, which is very concerning, and in that regard. I want to take it to the story of particularly Hamas and Gaza
Avi Melamed: you mentioned. Turkey is Turkey supports Hamas. Turkey supports the Muslim Brotherhood. It's part of the Muslim brotherhood. Now there is this whole story with Gaza.
Avi Melamed: Do you see a situation where Turkey is actually proactively interfering and making sure that Hamas rule in Gaza will continue.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, that's a tough question.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Before the war we could say that Turkish foreign policy was pro-palestinian and full stop. But after the war
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: in an unprecedented manner. Unfortunately, we see a very you know.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: problematic phenomenon that Turkey is adopting a very pro hamas foreign policy.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: And again, I have to quote Mr. Erdogan. He said that the same way that we acted in Libya and Nagorno-karabakh and I already mentioned what they did there. They provided ammunition, they provided Uavs
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and etc. Heavy weaponry. Okay.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: And of course, militias, he said, we would do the same in Israel.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: He said, if Turkey would be strong. Then Israel, again, I'm quoting, would not do this ridiculous things that it is doing in Gaza. Full stop
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: a quote so.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: dear Avi. Unfortunately, since we are talking about a President who has the full jurisdictional powers in his hands.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and who is, and his power is not limited with checks and balance systems.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Unfortunately, even if he's a member of NATO, etcetera, we should take him very seriously. I do not think that we're gonna see the Turkish army would launch a full scale war against Israel because of what is going on in Gaza. But obviously they can arm Israel's enemies the same way that Iran did.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and Turkey is closer, and Turkey has a geographical contiguity with Syria.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So it's not like, you know, when the Iranians wanted to send missiles or weaponry, etcetera. They had to pass from Iraq, from Iraq to Syria, from Syria to Lebanon. Right? But the Turks are are here.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay. They're occupiers inside Syria. They are already there. It's not like crossing the border with a single, or, you know, shipment. No, it's not like that. They are here. So if they are going to provide such weaponry. The impact will be felt, you know.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: immediately.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and therefore maybe not for Gaza. But I assume in Syria, and even in the very near future. In Lebanon we may see such Turkish behavior that they may arm
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: this kind of a problematic entities that we call them. Of course, terrorists.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and this is, you know, the likelihood of such a scenario should not be should not be ignored. And let me tell you recently the Israeli Government
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: received a new report called the Nagel Report. Maybe some of you are familiar, according to the findings of this report, that this kind of a recommendation for the Israeli government.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: A.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: The the ones.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: The experts who penned this report are asking the Israeli Government to
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: treat Turkey as a potential enemy.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay. It means that of course we do not want to see Turkey as an enemy, because we already have unfortunately, enough enemies, but we cannot be naive, especially after October the 7, th we cannot close our eyes, and we cannot say, oh, Turkey is a very friendly country. We have proper relations since 14 since 1949.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Obviously I really wanted to say such words for Turkey, the country that I was born in. But even for me it is impossible to be naive, and since the Jews
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: have only one state.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and we have to do everything possible to safeguard that only one homeland that we have. So unfortunately, we cannot take any chances, and if you ask me whether to treat Turkey as a potential enemy State, unfortunately, due to this very
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: aggressive statements of a current President and his close circle.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: We cannot overrule that such a scenario may take place in the future.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Obviously we cannot say that. Oh, it will not happen.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Can someone say that this this sentence, if you can say this sentence, I'm okay. But you cannot say this sentence. Oh, it's not going to happen.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: you know I made earlier to Israel in 2,006,
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and then I could not imagine that the situation between Israel and Turkey would deteriorate to this level when I made Aliyah I in the airplane. Frankly, I admit that I thought about the Iranian Jews.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: how they are making aliyah to Israel, that they 1st of all had to come to Turkey from Turkey. They had to come to Israel. Some of the families unfortunately splitted, they lost many money, etc. Etc. And I looked myself then. I was proud of my Jewish Turkish identity.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: but unfortunately, my friends who are making Alia to Israel today are making Alia through Athens or Tbilisi, or or through Baku. So it is.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Maybe Turkey is not like Iran today. Still there is a mutual recognition.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: but unfortunately the direction is worrisome, and one more last short story.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: It was if I'm not mistaken. It was 2012.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Professor Bernard Lewis visited the Moshe Dayan Center at Tel Aviv University.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and there, maybe you are familiar with Professor Bernard Lewis. It's like Elvis Presley, of Middle Eastern studies. Okay, it's like Michael Jackson of Middle Eastern studies. So he came to our university. He's a he was a well-known professor.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and I had a chance to sit next to him.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and we had lunch together, and he said, Son, maybe I will not going to see that, but you may obviously may may see it. One day Turkey will become Iran, and Iran will become Turkey.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: They will change. They will switch the roles when it comes to Israel's security. And I said, You know I was very young, I said, Oh, Professor, you're very, you know, talented, you're expert, etc. Etc. But I was born in Turkey. I lived in Turkey, and no, it will not happen.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: My problem is, dear Avi and friends. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same thing today. As I said to Professor Lewis, I cannot say him. No, it will. It won't happen.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I'm very concerned that his prophecy will be realized.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay.
Avi Melamed: I think that the picture that you presented is very clear again. We could have continued this discussion for a long period of time, but I really want to make some time for the fellows to come with questions. So the stage is yours, dear fellows, did you is going to call on people who wants to make questions.
Avi Melamed: Okay, so please, for the questions to try to stay within the topic of today. And we'll try to keep it short. So like, we can take the questions of everyone. So please raise your hand. And I will build the list to call you in order.
Avi Melamed: Okay, mice, okay.
Miles Isaacs: Very, very, very fascinating. It's not normal that I get to hear.
Miles Isaacs: for someone who goes to university with a lot of Turkish people having met the President of Northern Cyprus himself, and sat through an hour and a half discussion about Northern Cyprus. It's nice to hear
Miles Isaacs: a non-distorted narrative on history.
Miles Isaacs: Damn my question. I wanted to ask
Miles Isaacs: about about Northern Cyprus, and I wanted to ask about just about just about the history, and
Miles Isaacs: if you can give a succinct explanation as to the situation there. I know briefly what some of the history, but a lot of the sources that I come across are incorrect, or or conflicting with other sources that I come across.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay. Thank you.
Avi Melamed: Just just make a short note. We got some 20 min left, so I would appreciate the short questions and short answers. Thank you.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Sure.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Second question I noted down. Thank you very much, miles.
Avi Melamed: No, no, we're gonna go one by one by one.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: You you want me to to answer. Okay, so Republic of Cyprus, you know, was, was was formed, thanks to the Zurich agreements in 1959,
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and there was a very important appendix in that particular agreement. By the way, that agreement was signed by, of course, Republic of Cyprus itself. The United Kingdom, Greece and Turkey has turned into this new republics
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: guarant guarantors. Okay? And so in 1959, when this new State was born.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: These countries United Kingdom, Greece and Turkey. They got the jurisdictional power to safeguard this
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: new Republic and to you know, to be sure that the statusco would be preserved. Okay? And what was the statusco? 80% of the island? Then it was inhabited by the Greeks, and, roughly speaking.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: like 82%, and, roughly speaking, 18% was inhabited by the Turks. The President was the Greek, the Vice President was a Turk. Both had veto powers, and these veto powers paralyzed the whole decision, making system.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So of course, we had some communal fights, and since they were the minority, the Turks suffered greatly from this inter-communal violence. The Greeks they formed their own organization called Aoka.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and in return the Turks organized their own communal guerilla organization, called the Tmt. Long story short, in 1974 there was a military coup attempt that was orchestrated by a Greek called Nikos. Samson, who was affiliated with the Eoka.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Turkey saw that
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: military coup as a violation of the statusco, and it basically relied on the guarantee ship agreement of 1959, and decided to launch a military intervention in the island.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: This military intervention had 2 faces, and this is the very critical point, and then I will stop
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the 1st step. The very 1st step of the amphibious military assault was carried out in accordance with the international law, because it was carried out according to the Zurich agreement. But then.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: when the United States and other allies, they intervened and called for peaceful negotiations, the Turks stopped the 1st phase of the war.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they engaged in negotiations, until here the Turkish military intervention was legal in terms of international law.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: But when the peace negotiations took place.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the Turks came to the conclusion that the Greeks are, you know.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: trying to gain some more time and more time and more time, and they began to believe that it would endanger the Turkish troops
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: in the north of the island. As a result, in the middle of the peace negotiations the Turkish Government took a unilateral decision, and they stopped the negotiations, and they launched the second phase of their occupation, and at that particular point they lost all of the international legitimacy according to international law.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they made the partition of the island.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: They sent all of the Greeks to the south.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they sent, and they took all of the Turks to the north. They made a very crystal clear transfer
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and separation between the 2 communities
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and and then 1st day, formed a federative stage
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: in 1974, that it means that it signaled that this particular federative state still wanted to become a part of Republic of Cyprus. But later, in 1983, they took another unilateral decision. They declared the independence of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: since this particular
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: republic was declared unilaterally, and it lacked all of this legitimacy in terms of international law. So no state in the world other than Turkey integrated an embassy in Northern Cyprus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I really hope that I could provide you this in a nutshell, and.
Avi Melamed: Next question is that.
Avi Melamed: Isaac, please.
Isaac Babus: Hi, thank you for speaking. What do you see for the future of the Kurds, who are in Northern Syria and in Turkey?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, thank you for your question. 1st of all, I see a, you know, a deeper and deeper Turkish penetration in Northern Syria. Recently the Turkish infrastructure Minister
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: made a very important statement. He said that his country is willing to
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: provide new mobile infrastructure to Syria. His country would
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: repair, and would provide. You know, I would repair the airports, the Damascus airport, the Aleppo airport. They are going to bring
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: brand new radars, and they are going to pave new highways. They would like to revive the Istanbul Damascus Railroad as the way as once functioned in the Ottoman Empire.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they also said that they would like to conduct joint systemic energy cooperations with the Syrians. So what we understand from here is this is not an ordinary neighborly investment in a country. It is like hugging of a bear.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, you are providing all countries infrastructure.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: paving the wave, paving the paving the highways, railways, providing them necessary technological equipments, radars, Turkish Defense Minister said that his country would be eager to provide every kind of weapon
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and every kind of equipment for the Syrian army. They are ready to provide them necessary training, etc. So long story short, this is not an ordinary penetration, but they turned Syria into their own province.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and in order to blackmail, or in order to have a real impact on Damascus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Turkey will not going to withdraw from the territories that it occupied in Northern Syria make no mistake. They made their lots of investments. They integrated new hospitals.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: banks, you know, schools. They provided welfare system to to the inhabitants of northern Syria, and there is also another problem in Turkish eyes. This is the Kurdish problem. On the Turkish Syrian border
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: there is a portion of land where the landlocked Kurds are living. There is an organization there called the Pyd and Ypg. Ypg is the military wing, and Pyd is the political wing of the Syrian Kurds. In Turkish eyes this particular entity is considered as the offshoot of the Pkk.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Terrorist organization, which is declared by the United States and the West as a terrorist organization.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: But since they fought against the Isis during the last decade, so the West and the Europe
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: are not admitting the symbiotic bond between the Pyd Ypg. And the Pkk. But let me be very frank with you. This is the same organization with a different acronym.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So in their eyes the Turks wanted to get rid of this entity, but, as I already mentioned, since they are considered as
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: United States allies, and and there is also a Us. Military presence in Northern Syria.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so the Turks cannot get rid of the Kurds easily. Okay. So
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: they are pushing the Syrian government
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: that you know it is like something like an domestic Syrian problem
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: that should be solved by the Syrian government, but that Syrian government is driven by Turkey.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Nowadays we are seeing that there is a military friction in northern Syria, especially next to the river Euphrates. There is a dam there called the Tishrim Dam, on the very this site on the Tishrim Dam there are heavy exchange of fires between
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the Pyd Ypg. Guerrillas and the so-called New Syrian army, and of course, backed by Turkey by airstrikes, etcetera. So
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: it is not very easy for Turkey to reverse, and Turkey does not want to make any reverse. Okay, Turkey, only, you know, has put its gear on the on direct, you know, and it is
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: penetrating into Syria as never before, and I really don't think that they would, they would withdraw soon, and
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: let me say, we will see more and more Turkish penetration.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: And let me say again something
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: something new that I'm very much concerned that we may also see a Turkish military on Israeli Syrian border.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Last week, according to the latest reports in the Turkish press, the Turks are thinking out loud that they are. They want to integrate 2 military bases in Syria, and let me tell you, they would do it in a very creative manner
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: they would tag their forces as the Peacekeeping force
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: we already mentioned. The Cyprus issue right? What was the miles?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Do you know? Do you know the name of the Turkish operation in Cyprus. Can you name it for us?
Miles Isaacs: I remember, I remember watching the videos on Youtube,
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: It is. It is the operation, peace for Cyprus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay. Peace for Cyprus.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Invasion of Cyprus was conducted with the name of peace. 2,000. You know the Turkish operation in Northern Syria in 2016. Its name is Operation Euphrates Shield.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: another operation in 2018. Its name is the Olive branch.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay? And and another operation in 2019, it is called the Peace Spring.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So whenever we fight, we market it with the verge of peace. Okay, we only bring peace.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay? So I assume that if we're gonna see a Turkish presence in Syria in different locations.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: they will going to tank themselves as peacekeeping forces.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, that's how they would going to justify themselves. Their existence in Syria.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So.
Avi Melamed: So. Dr. Thank you so much. We do have couple of more questions.
Avi Melamed: I would like to enable other people to ask and please, we want to be careful of the time.
Avi Melamed: Okay? Apologies just to give a short answers. So who is next? Didier?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: But he!
Avi Melamed: And then Brooklyn and Tamah.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay.
Jonah: And also me after Tamar.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: And also Yona.
Bahij S.: All right. Thank you so much for speaking to us regarding both Turkey and Qatar. Both of them have very large contingents of either us forces or us weapons. So what kind of influence does the Us. Have over those countries, if any given that their forces are postured? There.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, that's a good question the the Us. Army base in Turkey in very strategic. Also, during the Cold War. It, it served for the Us. Military, especially because of geographical proximity to Russia. But when you are looking at the recent, let me select the last 20 years of us deployment in the Middle East.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: You're gonna see that Turkey? Because of its anti-american policy, agenda began to begin to lose its importance to Greece
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the the Greeks allowed the Americans integrate new military bases on their islands, and especially on a city called Alexandropoli, which is on the just adjacent of the Turkish border. So you you can understand that
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: us is doing its best to decrease is to decrease its interdependence or, let me say, to decrease its dependence to Turkey and regarding Qatar. I'm not an expert on Qatar, but
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I assume that it is
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Qatars can be replaced easily by Saudi Arabia
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: in terms of geographical proximity. So I think that is a Qatari concern. If the Us. Would go or would would stay, and I would not. I don't want to elaborate on more on that, because it's not related to my expertise.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Brooklyn Tory.
Brooklyn Tory: Hi, thank you for joining us. I was wondering. How has Turkey's push towards Western modernization influence its relations with the Arab countries in the Middle East?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay? When are about which period are we talking about?
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I'm talking specifically, adder, Turk.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay? So it was a kind of a divorce.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Also Atadu himself fought in the in the Middle East, he fought in Libya, he fought in the land of Israel, in Syria.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: so when he founded this republic, he wanted to get divorce from the Middle East, so Turkey had no concern to constitute an example for the Arab Middle East, or to secularize them.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Their most important vision was to become a part of Europe. As I already mentioned, we spoke about the 3 pillars of Gurkalp, Turkification, Islamization, and modernization. So, as I already mentioned, Ataturk gave much more importance to Turkification and modernization.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and he neglected Islam. But obviously it was there
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: because the Jews, Armenians and Greeks were not admitted
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: to the State institutions, for instance, even in other times. So that was a very clear indicator for you that Islam was there did not disappear. But the country was not ran. According to Islam, as a fundamental principle.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, so long story short, since we do not have enough time. I can tell you that Atater did nothing to have an influence in the Middle East to attract the attention of the Arabs. On contrary, for instance, he abolished the Caliphate. He did not want any bonds with the Arab Middle East.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Thank you for your question and for your presence.
Avi Melamed: And one last question, tomorrow.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Back. Avi avi!
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Such a thing, if it's possible, Tamar, very shortly, and then Jonah, and let
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I have no problem. If it's okay.
Avi Melamed: We have to conclude because we
Avi Melamed: keep on time. So, Tamar, please make your question and thank you.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, as you wish.
Avi Melamed: Thank you.
Tamar Sarah Weiss: Hi! My question is so in this fellowship. So far we've discussed the idea of like creating one Islamic Caliphate in the region, and the influence of the Arab brotherhood, and I wanted to know how that kind of conflicts with
Tamar Sarah Weiss: Turkey's desire, for, like their own Nationalist, like ideology, because we talked about how nationalism like doesn't like kind of conflict with the idea of like creating an Islamic caliphate because they're not supposed to be individual entities and countries. It's supposed to be like one
Tamar Sarah Weiss: united region. And I wanted to know how like that idea kind of conflicts with, okay, it's other.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I think I think the the Turks are missing a very important thing. They think that they can lead the whole Muslim world as the leaders, you know, of the of this new, so-called Caliphate. Okay, but
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: the the Arabs are not very much recognizing Turkey as their own leaders. Okay, you know it's not like the Ottoman times anymore.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Then the Ottomans persuaded the Arabs.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: You know how the Arabs, who were especially living in Hijaz, which means the Mecca and Medina area. They were tagged as the grandchildren of Prophet Muhammad, so they did not pay any taxes.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: believe me. If a government would not tax me. I would serve them, you know.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Greatly. Okay. But you know, taxes taxes. So because of this taxation issue in the Ottoman times. So we did not see any rebellions. You know, until the fall of Ottoman times. Okay. But
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: today the Turks are very Nationalist. At the same time they are synthesizing it with their Ottoman past Ottoman glory.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and they tend to believe that all of the other nations, like subcultures, underprivileged countries, let's say like Palestinians, Syrians, Iraqis, like the peoples of these artificial states. Okay, that emerged after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: In their opinion they all are yearning for Turkey.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: Okay, they are all calling for Turkey's, you know, intervention.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: This is what they believe. I don't think that this is this is what really is in the Arab Middle East, you know, maybe for some.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: and, you know.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: to get something concrete from Turkey like investments, or, as I already mentioned, some infrastructural projects. Maybe they tend to signal Turkey that they need turkey, but I really don't think that they would love to see you know Turkish domination, because they are Arabs, and you know we should respect them as well.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: So I think we are done.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: And, dear Jonah.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I'll write on the chat my email address, and if you still want to ask your question.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I really respect you. And therefore now I'll type my email address. Please feel free to type me. Ask me. And
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: I can summarize it for you then, because, you know, I saw how you were very enthusiastic, but we ran off out of time, so
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: please still be enthusiastic. But let's also respect Avi melamed our host. Okay, so everyone can be happy. Okay. And here is my.
Jonah: Thank you very much, sir. Thank you very much.
Avi Melamed: Yes, and I would like again to thank Dr. For this very, you know, enriching experience, lots of information, lots of insights. It's just like scraping the surface
Avi Melamed: again. We want to be, you know, appreciative of people. Time. We have to be done at the 1130
Avi Melamed: 2, 30 your time. So once again I want to thank you so much, and.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Avi Melamed: Thank you, Dr. Hai and Shalom, and have a good day. Bye, bye.
Dr. Hay Eytan Cohen Yanarocak: All the best guys. Bye-bye.
Brooklyn Tory: Thank you.
Jonah: Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.
Miles Isaacs: Thank you very much.