Avi Melamed: Wonderful. Excellent. So we are today on session 5
Avi Melamed: today, talking about a very, very significant
Avi Melamed: player in the region beyond the region, and this is the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Avi Melamed: As you may recall in our last session in the previous session we talked about another significant
Avi Melamed: regional player that was Turkey.
Avi Melamed: Today we are talking about Iran, and today we have now standing. We are very honored to have with us, which, of course, later on I'm going to properly introduce Nigel. Welcome to it.
negar.mojtahedi: Thank you.
Avi Melamed: Fellowship session. We really appreciate it. We're very honored and very fortunate to have you with us.
negar.mojtahedi: Likewise.
Avi Melamed: So
Avi Melamed: we are talking about Iran, an amazing outstanding player, regional factor that its roots goes back to one of the ancient civilization on this planet.
Avi Melamed: the Persian civilization that thrived in this region thousands of years ago
Avi Melamed: and actually leaving an enormous, powerful, and significant heritage. Culturally, culturally, militarily, politically.
Avi Melamed: This is as always as we are doing. You know we provide. The Id is sort of speaking of every country that we are talking about
Avi Melamed: once again. Of course I'm not going to read those slides. That's the reason why you have the recording. So you could go and look at the details. But obviously, when you look very briefly at that slide, showing you the idea of Iran, you see how significant
Avi Melamed: that player is, and one of the things that kind of like jumps in front of you, of course, is the ethnic richness of this of this State that actually has been one of the major characteristic to its history, and also plays an enormously significant role in the contemporary times. In the context of what I call the
Avi Melamed: the tensions or powers waggle over the identity.
Avi Melamed: you know, of Iran in our time, something that we will discuss. Of course, during this session. That map shows you illustrate the the might
Avi Melamed: and influence of the Persian civilization at its might, you could see it actually has been scattered all across both Central Asia as well. Areas of the Mediterranean. The eastern bastion of the Mediterranean, Central Asia, and
Avi Melamed: North Africa. So we are looking again as on one of the most significant powers that have been playing an enormously significant role in the shaping of the trajectory of this region. As you may recall in our 1st session, when we kind of like framed
Avi Melamed: the story of the region. We. We talked a little bit in length about the those civilizations. We talked about the Arab civilization, the Turkish, and of course the Persian civilization, and how enormously each and every one of them was playing
Avi Melamed: the role they played in the this evolving story of the Middle East
Avi Melamed: before the emergence of Islam. And and obviously, of course, after the emergence of Islam in the 7th century.
Avi Melamed: here are some milestones in the kind of like would say medieval to our times story of the Persian civilization, and then the way it has been evolved during that period of time. There is one significant period of time
Avi Melamed: in the middle of the kind of like the last part of the medieval times, and entering actually the new era
Avi Melamed: where scholars are actually looking at the period of time of the suffer. These monarchy
Avi Melamed: that ruled Iran, as you could see for more than 200 years, and and basically indicate that that specific milestone is an enormously significant one in the story of Iran, because most of the scholars
Avi Melamed: agree that that actually was one of the 1st manifestation of pre-modern time. Modern state.
Avi Melamed: which is a very interesting story for itself. The safari, by the way, dynasty was actually originally Turkish speaking one.
Avi Melamed: and when they took control over Iran and became the dominant power. They basically inherited a lot of governance methods and and approaches that some scholars actually that we are looking at Iran during that period of time, we are actually looking at what can be viewed as a pre-modern times. Modern state.
Avi Melamed: which is, of course, something very interesting for itself. The equivalent could be, roughly speaking, in that period of time, of course, is the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
Avi Melamed: though there are, of course, have been some significant differences between the 2,
Avi Melamed: all in all. When you look at the the story of Iran from the medieval times to our times, you could see that through most parts of history it has been ruled by dynasty.
Avi Melamed: a monarchy actually in the 20th century, most part of the 20th century, roughly speaking before the rise to power of the Mullah regime in 1979. Actually, Iran was predominantly still a monarchy. Obviously, when you're looking at nations and civilizations that have got used to such a political structure, and the presence and centrality of monarchy
Avi Melamed: in the story of nation. This is, of course, something which is very significant. Hence we can understand it could imply how dramatic was the shift.
Avi Melamed: Among other reasons, in 1979,
Avi Melamed: following the the rise to power of the Shmulah regime in Tehran, in Iran, and the downfall of the Bahlavi dynasty.
Avi Melamed: When we try to to look at the story of Iran in the context of identity, and particularly in contemporary times, you can find 4 major components that have been playing a significant role
Avi Melamed: in this published one, that you find the
Avi Melamed: the issue of the Persian ethnicity that has been the major spy or history.
Avi Melamed: You find Westernization the Shiite Component. And finally, the sense of territorial nationalism.
Avi Melamed: These have been to 4 major factors of identity, and shortly we'll see in the story of the 20th century Iran.
Avi Melamed: how the different powers, namely, particularly during the time of the Pahlavi.
Avi Melamed: a dynasty, and afterwards the time since 1979, the rule of the Mullah regime, how they each and every one of them actually was kind of like trying to shape
Avi Melamed: the identity vis-a-vis, the the maneuvering sort of speaking in between those 4 major factors.
Avi Melamed: When you look in that regard. In the context of Iran under the rule of the Pahlavi dynasty, from 1925 to 1979,
Avi Melamed: you could see that in the relationship between those components that has been the outcome sort of speaking of of the way they choose to shape their identity.
Avi Melamed: First, st emphasizing the Persian ethnicity.
Avi Melamed: second, emphasizing relatively more the pre-islamic past and heritage of Iran
Avi Melamed: slash Persia, and not so much the Islamic Shiite component.
Avi Melamed: and also kind of like emphasizing the issue of territorial integrity of Iran and a Westernization, or attempts to Westernization that actually in the end of the day was, roughly speaking, very much
Avi Melamed: confined into a very small sect of the population.
Avi Melamed: So all in all, when you look at this the way that those components of identity have been interacting during the time of the Pahlavi dynasty, particularly during the time
Avi Melamed: of the Shah Rizad. That basically ended the
Avi Melamed: after his downfall. The Khal Avi dynasty rule over Iran came to end.
Avi Melamed: You see that that maneuvering, so to speak, and result in some very interesting outcomes
Avi Melamed: on the one hand, thus creating still and maintaining that sense of solidarity with the monarchy on the one hand, but, on the other hand, basically fueling some sort of like growing discontent, and challenges that in the end of the day are going to result in a popular uprising in Iran that actually has been hijacked in 1979, with the Mullah regime coming to power.
Avi Melamed: One of the thing that fed that, for example, was that
Avi Melamed: the the religious cleric official were very unsatisfied with the fact that the Shiite Islamic component of Iran was relatively not emphasized, and rather what was emphasized was the pre-islamic
Avi Melamed: identity and nature.
Avi Melamed: One other, the thing the thing that also flew. Discontent among large sectors was the westernization of the society.
Avi Melamed: It has been
Avi Melamed: in the end of the day confined to elites, while large checks of the community or the society did not really share those sentiments.
Avi Melamed: Another thing that also fueled the growing unrest and discontent was that there has been a very clear gap between the affiliation towards the West on one hand, including adopting in some level
Avi Melamed: of Western values regarding freedom of right, and so on and so on. But, on the other hand, there has been expression of
Avi Melamed: oppression. That also kind of like resulted in a growing discontent in different circles among the Iranian people.
Avi Melamed: So all this together in the end of the day
Avi Melamed: leading to this boiling point of 1979, that is going to result into what is called the Islamic Revolution, where the mullah regime is coming.
Avi Melamed: I think that. Yeah.
Avi Melamed: it's I think it's more important to accurately say that what really, what really was kind of like. The origin of this thing was this combination
Avi Melamed: of different challenges and different unrests that basically percolated within different sectors?
Avi Melamed: Some of them sectors that are basically coming from
Avi Melamed: totally different, if not even opposing them. Like more progressive Socialist affiliated even Communist circles on the one hand, and extremely
Avi Melamed: conservative, religious, affiliated circle. Labors. the the the mid class in in Iran that always has been a very significant component of
Avi Melamed: all those components. Each and every one of them, for its own reason, had enough reasons to be discontent with the situation, and basically it resulted in this. What has been originally popular
Avi Melamed: demonstration and and outcry.
Avi Melamed: And actually, that is going to result a very dramatic outcome, because very quickly, the Islamic Component has been able to kind of like. Take over
Avi Melamed: the trajectory of this uprising or the trajectory of this demonstration and protest.
Avi Melamed: and resulting in the end of the day the rise to power of the
Avi Melamed: the Mueller regime in in one.
Avi Melamed: A few words about this whole Shia component you, you may remember we talked about the story of Sunnah and Shia, in Islam. We talked about it in length, in, in.
Avi Melamed: in our opening session, when we were framing the story of the Middle East, we talked about some major component in the Shia, I believe the narratives of the suffering. The story of
Avi Melamed: the 4th Khalifa Ali bin Abit Ali Bin, his successor, and particularly we talked about
Avi Melamed: Al Hussein, the Lord of Maltears, and and we talked about how powerful those narratives are in the Shiite. I believe we talked about this famous
Avi Melamed: phrase of Shiites that basically emphasized the sense of tragedy and injustice that has been deeply entrenched within the Shiite outlook. Talking about. We mentioned this famous phrase,
Avi Melamed: and every day is Ashua, and every place is Karbala, meaning basically you know.
Avi Melamed: perpetuating this sense, the sense of injustice, tragedy, misery. And so on. We you may remember we talked about how powerful is the the sentiment of the load of tears in the Shiite narratives.
Avi Melamed: We show this poster. You may remember, that was published by the Mullah regime shortly after the killing of
Avi Melamed: General Qasem Suleimani, the leader of the Al-quds force the spearheading the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards, and is responsible for the whole story.
Avi Melamed: coordinating and mastering the network of proxies that the Mullah regime has been establishing in the region. And this this poster, as many others, basically reflects how those ancient narratives were kind of like percolated into modern discussion. Sort of speaking.
Avi Melamed: We talked about the the Shiite core beliefs. We talked about the figure of Imam and and the major branch of the Twelveish Imam, and we talked about the issue of the
Avi Melamed: the rule of the jurispendent that has to be blindly obeyed because it is allegedly connected to a divine source of knowledge all of those things. I'm going very shortly because we talked about them, and we have it in front of us, so we don't really have to
Avi Melamed: repeat them in the context of the Mura regime in Tehran there are 2 components that I want to bring to the discussion, because they have not been discussed in the discussion about Sunas and Shiva.
Avi Melamed: One is this concept of the
Avi Melamed: the viewing the Shia as the authentic Islam, and as thus is the one that is supposed to lead the Muslim, the Muslim world, and mankind to salvation.
Avi Melamed: Another thing that is very strongly emphasized is the concept that is called Mustafaun, which means the people that are being oppressed, and the Mullah regime constantly
Avi Melamed: position itself as the defenders of the Mustafun. Those are being oppressed. Another thing as part of that is the non-compromising animosity towards the West and and Western imperialism, or Western outlook that has been viewed from the mullah's regime perspective as a kind of like, a condescending.
Avi Melamed: oppressive ideologies and civilization are titled in the term istic bow.
Avi Melamed: and how they basically view themselves as the counter power to that in that regard, 2 major components involved in that rhetoric describing the Us as the major ultimate representative as the big Satan. While Israel has been described as the little Satan.
Avi Melamed: When you look at the issue of national identity in Iran under the rule of the Mullah's regime, differently from the times of the Bahlavi dynasty. You see, as expected, for example, that obviously the Islamic Shiite heritage is now being centered in this new
Avi Melamed: congregation sort of speaking of Iranian identity. Persian ethnicity also emphasized
Avi Melamed: at the same time. On the other hand, the pre-islamic past and associated
Avi Melamed: traditions and codes and norms have been to a large extent pushed aside. Sometimes they have been even also prohibited, but sometimes mostly just pushed aside.
Avi Melamed: and of course, the issue of territorial integrity of Iran. These are the components that under the rule of the mullah regime resulted in something very interesting which is called Islamic nationalism.
Avi Melamed: Why is it interesting? Because the founder of the 1st storm. If
Avi Melamed: spiritual leader and supreme leader, Ayatollah, the founder of school in Iran, totally rejected the concept of nationalism. But actually, what happened in course of time was that the mullah regime, for different reasons, was basically able to create some sort of like an interesting mixture that some scholars describe by the name of Islamic nationalism. There is something that is kind of like Oxomoron in that definition, but there has been something that they were able to
Avi Melamed: builder, and the current supreme leader, Ali Khamene. He kind of like
Avi Melamed: basically described it, basically saying that only through actually.
Avi Melamed: this Iranian Islamic nationalism only through this structure, in fact that structure is not opposing
Avi Melamed: the religious ideology and ultimate objectives is, they are inhabited and drenched within the Shiite in the very outfall of the Shia, but actually, it is
Avi Melamed: further assisting achieving, achieving that goal
Avi Melamed: in the Iranian inner power structure. It's a very complex system. There are different centers of powers within the mullah regime, and though there are elections in Iran by the way, elections have been constantly characterized by very low
Avi Melamed: percentage of participation.
Avi Melamed: You could see, these are the central powers of this regime, the military spine, the Islamic Revolutionary guards that is actually acting parallel to the Iranian army. These are 2 different spines, so to speak. And then you have the Basij, the paramilitarized militia that is mostly engaged in the domestic affairs that has been very much engaged in oppressing uprising in Iran.
Avi Melamed: you see, in the center there are a couple of legislative slash elected slash executive powers in Iran. the the most significant one, I would say, roughly speaking, is the Council of the Guardians, which is including 12 people.
Avi Melamed: 6 are elected, and 6 are coming from the official legislative power. The issue is that in the end of the day you're looking at a system that to a large extent, even though it has a different power centers
Avi Melamed: in the last. In the end of the day. The power essentially is in the hand of the supreme leader, and through its ability to basically activate the different forums. It has basically able to position itself as a very, very significant power base. In fact, the ultimate power base today in the Iranian structure, the the assembly of experts, a body that is composed
Avi Melamed: of Shiite mullahs, potentially has the power to even overthrow
Avi Melamed: the supreme leader. But this is, in fact, a deception, because in the end of the day half of this body is nominated by him himself, and the other half is nominated by the Supreme Judge. That actually is a personal nomination of the Supreme leader itself. So we're looking at a very complex system. On the one hand, a system that has in a way
Avi Melamed: characteristic that could be described as democratic one. But in the end of the day, practically speaking.
Avi Melamed: this is not the case.
Avi Melamed: And so this is the right moment, I would say, to move and to introduce our honorable guest, educator
Avi Melamed: Mega, much Dahidi
Avi Melamed: Ramuj Tayide is a multi-platform journalist working at Iran international English. He previously worked as the reporter and producer at global news slash global national Cbs news and Ctv. In Canada.
Avi Melamed: She is also an investigative reporter who brokered the story on Iranian regime interference in Canada.
Avi Melamed: exposing regime-linked affiliates operating in Canada and threatening the lives of Iranian Canadians.
Avi Melamed: She pushed for answers and accountability on the National security issue from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
Avi Melamed: She's passionate about storytelling and uses health to raise awareness, help people, and bring about positive representation to combat negative
Avi Melamed: stereotypes. Negar is an award-winning documentary filmmaker.
Avi Melamed: Her 1st documentary. My dream goes all the way to Iran
Avi Melamed: is a powerful portrait of the Iranian expatriate, and an immigrant population that is often misunderstood and misrepresented.
Avi Melamed: God believes that the heart of every story is emotion.
Avi Melamed: Agar, thank you for joining us. We are very honored and happy to have you with us, and I would like to start.
Avi Melamed: It's something that I think is almost, you know, required
Avi Melamed: share with us a little bit the story of your family and everyone.
negar.mojtahedi: And 1st of all, thank you so much for having me here. It's an honor, and it's it's really great to connect with everyone who's online right now and getting to know all of you. So my family fled, Iran in 1979, shortly after the Revolution, moving to Europe, then eventually to Canada, which is where I was born, and am a proud Iranian, Canadian.
Avi Melamed: So. Have you still got any members in Iran family members in Iran or relation.
negar.mojtahedi: The immediate family is all out, and the majority of you know some 1st cousins, and this and that a lot of people are living either in in California and and Western Europe and whatnot. But there is still some family that is in Iran extended family, if you will a lot more the kind of the older generation that is still in Iran.
Avi Melamed: So in your work as a journalist, as part of the Iranian heritage and story investigative journalist. Obviously you are keeping all the time finger on the pulse. In the context of the story of Iran, a fascinating story for itself. Obviously Iran captured the centers of the media headline constantly and for very good reasons.
Avi Melamed: And one of the thing, obviously that has been, of course, out there for at least the last decade, roughly speaking, is that
Avi Melamed: we we have witnessed this are repeating expressions or bursts of uprising in unrest in Iran.
Avi Melamed: The most recent 1, 2, 19. The story of Masamini
Avi Melamed: and what it has resulted, following the what is fueling those sentiments of honest.
negar.mojtahedi: It is an overall sense of dissent, like they are just not happy in Iran right now. I mean the people of Iran. All they really want is just to have a normal. They just want to have a normal life. And they're living in this oppressed system where everything is really bad for them. Not only is it an oppressive regime, but you've also got.
negar.mojtahedi: you know, this energy crisis, and they've constantly have power outages like in, you know you in the middle of the day, out of nowhere, with no warning. They've got a horrible, horrible, terrible economy with the real at an all time low, and people are just not
negar.mojtahedi: happy like. It's just they feel that when I've talked to people in Iran, you know, they just said, I feel like we just don't have a future anymore. Not only do they not have freedom, but they feel that there's just no hope for them, that there's just nothing. And you know.
negar.mojtahedi: recently I spoke with a woman named Artemis who made headlines. I don't know if you guys saw the New York Times photo of the Iranian or the deportees in Panama, and she wrote in red lipstick, help me! And the New York Times actually captured that image. Now she is a woman who comes from a young woman. She's 29 years old, from an upper middle class family, so you know, they were doing well in that sense.
negar.mojtahedi: and she flew to Dubai to process a work visa to go to Mexico City from once that worked out. Then she went to South Korea.
negar.mojtahedi: and then from South Korea. That was her transit to Mexico. Then she was in Mexico City, working for a few weeks, and then she walked to Tijuana, and from Tijuana she crossed the border. So this is somebody again, coming from an upper middle class family, you know. They have, you know, food on the table every night, but life was so bad for her that look at the trouble that she had to go through to just to leave the country like this is what's happening to
negar.mojtahedi: the society in Iran. And now this poor woman is in a deportation camp in the middle of the Darien, near the Darien Gap in the jungle. So I mean, this is what life came to that. She had to go through these great lengths just because she felt like there was just nothing for her in Iran anymore. And this is what the majority of Iranians are feeling. It's just, you know, a government that is
negar.mojtahedi: obsessed with this, their nuclear ambitions, trying to eliminate the State of Israel and taking all the money that should go to regular Iranian people into their proxies. It's just not a life for people anymore.
Avi Melamed: So you mentioned the discontent, and one of the things that you mentioned was in the context of the regional policy of the of the regime that has been very aggressive and expansionist, so to speak.
Avi Melamed: What's
Avi Melamed: what's the sentiment of the population? Vis-a-vis, I mean? What is what is? How do they view that? Do they view that something that is adding to their national pride? Or do they view that something is that more of kind of like countering to their interests.
negar.mojtahedi: It's embarrassing for them. It's national pride. So, for example, if you look at even recent videos coming out of Iran just even on social media after. I believe it was after October 7, th and the regime was, I guess, trying to
negar.mojtahedi: to to gloat, or whatever you want to call it, and they took pride in October 7, th the regime itself. And so they were having these kind of like ceremonies and events in Iran, and they they put out the Israeli flag. So, for it was huge on on the surface of one of the universities, and people would go out of their way
negar.mojtahedi: to walk around it so that they wouldn't show any disrespect and refuse to walk on it. And it was actually a little bit challenging because of the diameter, and how massive it was. So people had to just go all the way around just to walk. You know, people are holding Israeli flags, and if you look at even
negar.mojtahedi: prior to October 7, th a lot of the protests in Iran, even at the time of the Green Revolution, and then again, in 2,019, when you had, you know, the bloody November which was fueled by
negar.mojtahedi: again, the oil crisis and and the price of oil and the economy, etc. which is wrapped into this oppression, and everything too. Right? Because it's all it's all related. It's it's part of the whole system.
negar.mojtahedi: And they were saying a saying in Farsi that goes, which means no to Gaza, no to Lebanon, you know my my life goes for Iran, because that's that's what they're trying to say, and this is again prior to October 7, th and even more so after. But you know, stop doing sending our money to help fuel.
negar.mojtahedi: because it's not even going to the people of Lebanon or to the people of Gaza. It's going to build, you know, tunnel systems, for example, and it's going to armaments and and things like that to strengthen terrorist proxy networks in the region. So it's something that is
negar.mojtahedi: again a huge, I would say, and I'm generalizing, but for the majority of Iranians, a huge national embarrassment, and it is robbing them of their own future. Just it is, I think, robbing even Palestinians and Lebanese of a future for themselves as well.
Avi Melamed: So in that regard we talked about the concept of the big Satan, the United States, the little Satan Israel that has been one of the center, you know, propaganda
Avi Melamed: and messages of the regime.
Avi Melamed: We witnessed in the past. You know this mass demonstration where people are cheering out those slogans, but from political perspective.
Avi Melamed: What is exactly the purpose of those slogans? Is it supposed to create some sort of like
Avi Melamed: and consensus or solidarity that is across the board in Iran which have different ethnic groups? Or is it something that is more supposed to
Avi Melamed: preserve the the oppression of the people.
negar.mojtahedi: I think the latter, and I think it all goes back to this being really a sham like this. This is not the real people of Iran. And actually, I'm thankfully you mentioned my documentary. My dream goes all the way to Iran, which was.
negar.mojtahedi: it came out in 2019, and I worked on it for years prior to that. And one of the reasons why I even did that documentary is, I was just getting and especially working in news, and this is something I did, independent of that. But working in the news industry. I was just getting so sick and tired of seeing B roll and sound up of
negar.mojtahedi: Iranians in, in dark veils, and with their, you know, fists in the air, saying, Death to America! Death to Israel! To this, you know, big Satan and little Satan. As you said, it was driving me nuts. Because I'm like this is not what majority of Iranians like this is a very small percentage of extremists in the country, and we know ourselves as Iranians, that a lot of times that they would have these protests, they would actually send buses to kind of like the village.
negar.mojtahedi: village areas. Pay the money and bring them over to kind of be, I guess. Pretend protesters if you will, and they would, because they they know that they're economically, you know, impoverished, and that they would take the money. So
negar.mojtahedi: it was. Yeah, it was driving me crazy. But the thing is is that I think a lot of that changed with the
negar.mojtahedi: the death of Masa Amini, who was a a Kurdish Iranian woman, who was.
negar.mojtahedi: according to the government of Iran, improperly wearing her hijab. And so she was wearing a headscarf. But I guess she wasn't wearing it the way that they liked it, which is what the majority of Iranians women. They
negar.mojtahedi: start wearing the the headscarp here. So you and the hair is all coming out from the front. So this is kind of their way of
negar.mojtahedi: of revolting, and when she died or was killed under police custody, I should say
negar.mojtahedi: this really helped to to shine the light on what real Iranian people are like, and for the 1st time I was seeing, you know Juliette Binoche and all these French actresses and American actresses and whatnot, cutting their hair in solidarity with Masa Amini
negar.mojtahedi: for the 1st time, and I saw suddenly the image of Iranian people changing, and that you could see that women were on the front lines of these protests. You could see that there were men and the majority of people who were executed during this period of time, where they arrested. I think it was 20,000 people. The majority of people who were who were being killed were Iranian young Iranian men. So they were putting themselves out in the front lines.
negar.mojtahedi: not just for themselves, but for the women and for for all Iranian people. So I think that came as a great shock to a lot of people. And and suddenly this again this image of Magbar on Rikh started to evaporate, and one of the people that I interviewed actually going back to my documentary. He actually made that point and said that he was working as an architect in Vancouver, in Vancouver, Canada, and his boss said to him.
negar.mojtahedi: because this was just shortly after the Revolution when he fled, You know what's real. Are you real, or are they real? Because I'm seeing 2 different people here? You're just like me. And then I'm seeing these images coming on my screen. What's what's the deal here? And then it's the same story that has been happening since 19 since 1979.
Avi Melamed: Yes, and you bring, I would just add before my question something you know there is. There is a large Persian community in Israel.
Avi Melamed: and I. I happen to have a very close relationship with them, and they are very warm, and you know, very generous
Avi Melamed: people. And, as you said before. I think that one of the things that I was always impressed by them was that they they have a natural joy. You know, I have been attending different events in Israel of the Persian community, and it was really
Avi Melamed: love to party.
Avi Melamed: They love to party, they love good life. And and so when you talked about the fact that they are not happy in Iran, which is, I think, something that is very much against the I would say, the natural vibe of
Avi Melamed: of Iranian Iranian people. I want to go back to what you talk about. You mentioned the story of
Avi Melamed: the young generation, which obviously was very clear young generation was kind of like the one standing in the front line, at least in the last couple of uprising, or unrest, or demonstrations or outcry in Iran, and paying, as you mentioned, the most terrible price that you can imagine.
Avi Melamed: I was reading, by the way, at one source, once something interesting that, following the the uprising, following the killing of Masamine, about 40,000 people were arrested.
negar.mojtahedi: Yep.
Avi Melamed: And and that source said that most of the young of the people arrested were young people, not surprisingly.
Avi Melamed: and then says that about 40% of those peoples were actually the young generation. Their parents
Avi Melamed: have been holding positions within the Islamic revolution.
negar.mojtahedi: Yes.
Avi Melamed: This is enormously interesting.
negar.mojtahedi: It's fascinating, isn't it? A lot of the people that were executed were the children of these revolutionaries? And now they too obviously are against the regime as well. You know things are a lot of them. When I you know, I went to travel to Iran just actually weeks before the Green Revolution started. Obviously, I can't travel back. I can't travel. Actually, I can't travel. I just. It would probably be a 1 way ticket and wouldn't be able to get out of the country, which is the biggest issue.
negar.mojtahedi: Is that a lot of these people were saying, hey, it's your fault. You guys started this. And now we're the ones who have to suffer. So they were blaming their parents, or just in general, their parents generation for being part of this revolution, and it's something that you alluded to
negar.mojtahedi: in your introduction seminar over there is that
negar.mojtahedi: a lot of the revolution may have been, I guess, hijacked by these Islamic extremists. But really it was a revolution of so many different factions of society, who, again, were not happy with the way things were going in Iran, and a lot of them were, you know, Communists and Leftists and Socialists, and and they were able to all put aside their differences for their. I guess their hatred of the Shah.
negar.mojtahedi: and they were successful in their efforts. And then Khomeini, pretty much, you know, just killed them all right after. And so a lot of this generation, the new generation where their parents were either you know, the Communists or the Leftists taking part in this or whatever now working with the regime, some of them, and it is very fascinating because
negar.mojtahedi: they want nothing to do with. I guess the legacy of their parents, the consequences of what their their parents helped to bring about, if you will, and a lot of them. When I, as you know, just a journalist, speak with the families, they say. Oh, well, we didn't know they were going to be this bad. We're sorry we made a mistake, and we shouldn't have done such a thing. And so they realize that themselves, too. And you have a lot of people within.
negar.mojtahedi: you know, with working with, because in Iran.
negar.mojtahedi: any kind of position of power.
negar.mojtahedi: You are still working with the regime in some fashion, because it's like a mafia, because they control everything. So even if you own a pharmacy. You still have to, you know, pay things under the table, and you still have to deal with these people, and if you don't, things are going to get shut down, and I know people who are like, I don't want to deal with this, and then they would get their businesses shut down. So in some way a lot of people are connected to the regime in that fashion, and they're not necessarily they're not ideological. And again, they just want to have
negar.mojtahedi: a normal life too. So if there were to be a change, those are the people that are still within the system, who would also support and and participate in bringing about this change. And you know I even did an interview
negar.mojtahedi: with a women life, freedom, protester, who left the country. He even gave his real name, everything. And now he's stuck in Turkey in some sort of deportation camp, and it's an absolutely tragic tale of how he was able to to make it to Greece, and then the Greek authorities handed him over to smugglers to send him back to Turkey. And then these smugglers gang raped this this individual young man just an awful story, and now he risks being sent back to Iran.
negar.mojtahedi: And this individual told me. You know my parents are working with the regime. But I just couldn't stand life in Iran anymore. After the women life, freedom protests. I felt I had to do something. And and so you're seeing this level of society which we hadn't seen in previous protests, and we hadn't seen in the past in Iran, really taking part in this anti regime sentiment, which is huge. This is very significant.
Avi Melamed: Yes, and one more thing that I can add to that is that there was another aspect that I was coming across in that regard
Avi Melamed: and that is the role of the young and minor
Avi Melamed: junior sort of speaking level of the mullahs in Iran, because
Avi Melamed: at some point I was reading something that, if I understood correctly, was saying, like
Avi Melamed: one of the potential agent of change, may be the the rising of this level
Avi Melamed: young mullahs in Iran that are not part of the old structured regime, and they are coming from the mostly the poor families. And they basically could be significant agent in the process of a change. Are you familiar with that.
negar.mojtahedi: I haven't heard too much about this, because there, unfortunately, there, there is a lot of distrust when it comes to to mullahs in Iran, just
negar.mojtahedi: whether whether they are in support of the regime or they're not. You know there are even videos circulating online for a number of years now of when they see a mullah they try. And, for example, take off the turban, for instance, out of a you know, disrespect, and I remember, even when I was in Iran just weeks before the Green Revolution, and I was in a cab, and sometimes the cab driver would swerve in the direction of the mullah when they would see them on the side. What are you doing? He's like, oh, I just want to scare them a little bit
negar.mojtahedi: and show them how much I hate them. So it's like you. You don't even know that individual, but just based on, on, you know, stereotypes, and and
negar.mojtahedi: the path that they chose in life. This is how they feel, so I haven't heard too much about that, but I can see that as definitely a possibility. And, in fact, at the time of the Revolution there was, there was even a group of mullahs who were very against this revolution, very against the politicization and the weaponization of Islam that you see here right? Because they knew that once you politicize Islam, that's it. People are going to
negar.mojtahedi: turn their backs against the religion, and which is exactly what ended up happening, because even at the time of the Shah he did have a council of mullahs that he would consult with that were that were part of the government, and he went, for example, with his wife and press Varah. They went to Saudi Arabia, and they went to Mecca, and they did the Hajj, and they would go to the shrine of Imam Reza and Mashad, and I mean his name is Reza and his father. You know Father Muhammad Reza right like this, even had Muslim names.
negar.mojtahedi: and so they did have a certain respect, because they were Muslims for for Islam. But still they it was separate from the the political atmosphere.
negar.mojtahedi: And so, if you look at even polling today and just, you know, anecdotal evidence, the majority of Iranians are not Muslim. A lot of them had converted to Zoroastrianism, which is the pre Islamic religion, because that's how they want to identify and to separate themselves from
negar.mojtahedi: the whole regime. A lot of them have been Buddhist Christian. Many are spiritual, and turning to, you know, the great Persian poets as as a
negar.mojtahedi: sort of a guide or a source, and many of them are spiritual and may believe in God, but they don't. They're not religious, so I would say even it's it's amazing, even when you see in the traditionally kind of.
negar.mojtahedi: And I say, you know, lower class families which in any society, any kind of rural society are typically more religious. Even their children and their grandchildren don't believe in Islam. They're drinking. They're acting like any Western person would. So you're seeing this real rejection of the religion right now. So maybe those mullahs that you're mentioning, I would think
negar.mojtahedi: in a way, they're kind of saving Islam in some ways, if they, if they help to
negar.mojtahedi: get rid of the politicization of it.
Avi Melamed: Fascinating. What you said about this whole process of like, you know, walking away from the religion and actually adopting different manners of spiritual
Avi Melamed: traditions and beliefs. I want to.
negar.mojtahedi: Because they associate it with with with the regime, so they reject that therefore they're rejecting everything else that comes with it.
Avi Melamed: You know I want. I want to shift a little bit and talk about the Western Europe and
Avi Melamed: That's the worst, understand? Iran.
negar.mojtahedi: No, I don't think so.
negar.mojtahedi: Unfortunately, I don't think they understand the complexities of Iran again. I think maybe they have a little bit of a greater understanding now that after the women, life, freedom, movement, and all of the coverage that was happening, and people seeing what Iranians were doing just because they wanted to show a little bit of hair and have some freedom. So I think that really did help to change. But when I was in
negar.mojtahedi: Washington, DC. Recently for the inauguration, and I was talking to a lot of trump supporters. I actually was quite surprised that a lot of them did have some understanding and compassion for Iran, and one of the trump supporters told me, you know, before there was Rome there was Persia, and I go. Oh, so you know about that? And another person was blaming Jimmy Carter for what had happened
negar.mojtahedi: to Iran, given his support for, or
negar.mojtahedi: wanting to get rid of the Shah at the time, because they felt it was in the best interest of the Us. And and supporting Khomeini
negar.mojtahedi: and
negar.mojtahedi: You know I was really just blown away to see even that level of understanding. And a lot of the trump supporters said, you know, I hope, that trump can undo what Carter did in Iran, and I don't know if that's actually going to happen. But that's kind of, was the mindset for a lot of people which even shocked me. But there are so many nuances and complexities, especially when it comes to the opposition
negar.mojtahedi: forces in outside of Iran as well, that I think a lot of people don't understand, and it's even hard for me, as an Iranian Canadian, to understand what's happening there, because there's a lot of rivalry. There's a lot of disinformation, and the regime is feeding off of this.
negar.mojtahedi: and they play into this Disinformation campaign because they are so good at disinformation. They're very smart when it comes to, you know, cyber warfare and trying to fuel
negar.mojtahedi: the the fighting, the infighting, and rivalry within the opposition itself. I mean, we even know that I did an investigation on how the regime was
negar.mojtahedi: pretty much supporting and funding and fueling the online
negar.mojtahedi: fighting between the pro Palestinian activists and or the anti-israeli activists, I should say, at the Mcgill campus in University, in Canada as well. So they're very good at that kind of cyber warfare to create more divisions within society. It's kind of like their soft power, which they're quite successful at that. Unfortunately.
Avi Melamed: So as we kind of like approaching towards the end of our discussion, which we could
Avi Melamed: continue for the next couple of hours, because I have so many questions. But obviously I want to leave time for the fellows to make the questions.
Avi Melamed: And here here is the question that I want to ask you.
Avi Melamed: You know many analysts are talking about Iran now, particularly after the weakening of what is called the axis of resistance. The defeat of the Hezbollah, Hamas, and others. The subject we will discuss in different session.
Avi Melamed: And adding to that the enormous challenges in Iran, economically, socially, and so on, politically and you basically exposed to some of its fascinating aspects of this unrest and the toughening sanctions by trump administration. There are analysts that are basically saying, and I personally joined it. Outlook that said that the mullah regime in 2025 is going to face, maybe unprecedented challenge to its endurance.
Avi Melamed: The big question that I'm often asked almost every time, is is there going to be a change of regime in Iran? What does it take
Avi Melamed: that something like this would happen.
negar.mojtahedi: That's a great question, and it's 1 that I debate with myself in my own head over and over again, because it's such an important question. So I mean, if you look at Iran, let's say, just after October 7, th 2023, it looked like
negar.mojtahedi: that they were riding high, and especially just prior to that, the Biden Administration have released 6 billion dollars in in frozen assets for this prisoner swap, and they were their whole axis of resistance and creating this ring of fire around Israel that was really created by Qasem Soleimani, the Quds force commander that you mentioned, who was
negar.mojtahedi: killed by the President trump in Iraq in in 2,000 January 2020. It looked like they were really riding high, and things were going very well for them.
negar.mojtahedi: And then you know, thanks in major part to Israel, the
negar.mojtahedi: the weakening of Hezbollah. Of course they're still there, but all of their major leadership is out. You know, the Hamas as an terrorist organization is really being dismantled, and then, of course, that all led to the very quick and sudden fall of Bashar Al-assad their greatest Arab ally, and I mean we. We had a conversation on that. And then, hours later, suddenly he was out. It just was. It was incredible how how fast that happened! And now you even see in Iraq that the Iraqi
negar.mojtahedi: kind of Shiites, that
negar.mojtahedi: Iran had been really having a huge, their fingerprints and influence on, and trying to spread their regional hegemonic power. Even they now are starting to back away because they don't want to associate themselves with this, this weakening
negar.mojtahedi: clerical establishment, and then you've of course, at 1 point this the Houthis were able to pretty much bring all of the worldwide shipping almost to a halt at 1 point, but even now they are kind of the last man standing. But I feel that
negar.mojtahedi: you know, if they don't get their their armaments, and this and that. They, too, are going to be out soon enough. So, and, like you mentioned domestically, Iran is not doing well. The real economic crisis, energy crisis overall people being just incredibly unhappy in the country.
negar.mojtahedi: But would that lead to change? And what does it take that part is really difficult to answer, because, you see, all of the ingredients are there. All of the ingredients for regime change are currently present, and it's only going to get worse in 2025 with this maximum pressure campaign from the Trump administration. Although there's a little bit of a
negar.mojtahedi: of a a factor here with, let's see what happens between Russia and Ukraine, because this is going to impact Iran as well. And we know that Russia and Iran and China are in access. And if Trump is
negar.mojtahedi: gonna make friends with Putin, if Putin puts enough influence on him to sign a deal with Iran, would he? I personally think he would, because I think he's a man of of no
negar.mojtahedi: no philosophy right? And we'll do whatever isn't his best interest at the time we saw that with him, you know, shaking hands with Kim Jong UN, who he had prior to shaking hands with him, said, There will be all fire and and fury right? And then, even even in Israel, he said, if those hostages are not out by Saturday, there will be hell to pay well. They weren't out by Saturday, all of them. And what hell did anybody pay from his threat, I mean.
negar.mojtahedi: So it's going to be interesting to see what happens with the trump administration. How the Us. Yes, you do have this maximum pressure campaign, and that's a very positive step forward in terms of again further weakening the system in the hopes that that would allow the Iranian people to be able to rise up. But let's see what happens with Ukraine right now, and Zelensky and his alliance with dictatorships, unfortunately, and Trump has said that
negar.mojtahedi: he's been pretty open, that he does want to make a deal with Iran, and many analysts say that the only reason he was so opposed to them.
negar.mojtahedi: the Obama Administration's Iran deal. Was it because it was Obama's? And he just wanted to kind of be the antithesis of whatever Obama was doing
negar.mojtahedi: so. But again, going back to the fact that trump doesn't really have a philosophy of being anti this or pro this. You just never know what you're going to get. It could be that. Yes, he's going to start a military alliance with Israel and go in. It could be the exact opposite. You just don't. It's really hard to predict, I think, with somebody who is not, as I guess, politically stable as other American leaders have been where you kind of have
negar.mojtahedi: an idea of how they're going to react. So it's it's very hard to say so again, all the ingredients are there even present at right now.
negar.mojtahedi: But the problem is is that there's no strong institutions in place to replace this regime, and there's no strong opposition. Yes, there is an opposition, but they're constantly fighting with each other, and I'm looking at them going. Well, who who are you guys against? Are you against the regime are you against amongst yourselves? Can't you have these arguments after? But unfortunately, no, and there's a lot of hatred. There's a lot of vitriol. It's very
negar.mojtahedi: It's very toxic
negar.mojtahedi: the amount of infighting between people who are against the regime outside of the West, and if they continue to act like this. I feel that unfortunately.
negar.mojtahedi: then what do you do? Because Iranians have risen up in the past before, and what happens? Like you said 40,000 people arrested. You know hundreds of people executed? Are people going to put themselves in the front lines? If they feel that they have no support. Also, they don't have any. They're not armed, they don't. I mean, there are some, you know.
negar.mojtahedi: Kurdish militants, and this and that here and there that have some armaments, but overall in general. When you're looking at these young Iranians, they're just regular everyday people. They don't know how to fight. They don't know how to do any of that. So if you don't have support from the West for the people of Iran which is needed, and this is something that a lot of analysts who I've spoken to said, Yeah, maximum pressure maximum support for the Iranian people.
negar.mojtahedi: So to accompany your maximum pressure campaign. Also, please have maximum support for the Iranian people. So, for example, some suggestions. And I actually spoke to an Israeli official on this, he said, you know, maybe they could create, like some sort of strike fund, because the biggest thing is
negar.mojtahedi: just like, at the time of the 1979, revolution was for the economy to just, for everyone to just go on strike. We're not seeing that right now. We're seeing pockets, you know, Balzar person here, Balzar person there, but not enough cohesive strikes to actually have an impact in the long term on the regime versus some short term ripple effects.
negar.mojtahedi: And so if you had, for example, a strike fund where you would tell these people, okay, well, you're off of work. Here's enough money so you can have food on the table for the day. More people would be having an incentive and be willing to do it. So there are things like actual
negar.mojtahedi: things that can be implemented on a point by point basis to create this maximum support for the Iranian people. And also again, you know, at the time of the Masa Amini Revolution or Women Life Freedom movement, there was a transitional council that was made up of the
negar.mojtahedi: former Shah of Iran, the Crown Prince, Reza Pahlavi, as well as Human Rights women's activist, Masi Ali Najad Hamid, Esvalyun, who lost his wife and his daughter in the downing of flight. 752, which is where the Irgc shot down a Ukrainian flight and killed everybody on board with 2 surface-to-air missiles. You know, we had a Kurdish political activist. There was a big group of different people that all came together and guess what they all started fighting, and it broke up, and that really
negar.mojtahedi: led to a lot of disappointment, not
negar.mojtahedi: only from the people in the West, but also the people in Iran, we're like, what do you guys, what are you guys doing? But there's no actual leader that I can think of in Iran itself. Because guess what? All of these major leaders and
negar.mojtahedi: writers and filmmakers they're all in Eving prison, you know. There's kind of a dark humor joke, where, you know they call it the University of Evin, because every every academic, every professional artist and filmmaker spend their time in jail, so they've arrested pretty much anyone who could be seen as a so-called leader to bring about
negar.mojtahedi: change. But until this infighting and rivalry is
negar.mojtahedi: sorted out, I don't see how there can be an actual regime change at this moment, because without those strong democratic institutions in place, just take a look at Afghanistan, where they went to war all of these young Americans and Canadians, and whatever were killed to take out the Taliban. And now what do we have? We have the Taliban? So you've just replaced the Taliban with the Taliban.
Avi Melamed: I really want to actually open this session to the questions of the fellows. But there is one more question that I have to bring and really appreciate your very short answer, like 2 min.
negar.mojtahedi: Of course.
Avi Melamed: M.
Avi Melamed: Following October second. One of the things that we saw in some Western circles is that they are expressing admiration to the Mullah regime, and one of the things they are echoing is that the Mullah regime is the defender of the Palestinians, and therefore their support.
Avi Melamed: What is for the mullah regime the issue of the Palestinian cause. What is it for them? Exactly.
negar.mojtahedi: Upon to use them.
negar.mojtahedi: They're just using them, that's it. They don't actually care for any Palestinian people at all, or for Palestinian lives. They don't, they don't give
negar.mojtahedi: at all. In fact, it's an interesting question of why would a Shia led theocratical regime allow themselves with a Sunni led? You know, terrorist group like Hamas. And that's because they're willing to put aside their ideological differences for their, I guess hatred of of Israel, and wanting to eliminate Israel. This is just them using them as pawns in their quest for again, regional
negar.mojtahedi: hegemonic power, and also to try and distract from their own issues in Iran as well, so they're a really great excuse, but they have no allegiance at all to any kind of so-called Palestinian cause. But you're right. You even see Khamenei wearing a kafiya on most most occasions when he's doing one of his sermons, for example. But it's interesting, you know, at Iran International, we interviewed. You know American people holding the flag of the Islamic Republic of Iran
negar.mojtahedi: at protests. And we're like, What are you doing? And then he goes. Oh, well, you know, his answer was something. Deluca was his name, and he goes well.
negar.mojtahedi: you know, they're standing up to Zionism, and I really appreciate the regime because they're anti Zionist. That was this whole thing. And anytime the reporter would bring up. Well, what about what they're doing to their own people and the oppression and the executions and the killings. And da da he goes. Oh, well, I don't really know about anything about the domestic politics. I'm not educated enough, but I do know that they're anti Zionists, and therefore, like, I'm for their cause. And I have a lot of respect. And okay.
negar.mojtahedi: anyways, that's my answer.
Avi Melamed: Well, as I said before, we could have continued this discussion the next couple of hours. But we want to leave time for personally, I want to thank you for your amazing insights and perspectives. So.
negar.mojtahedi: Thank you for having me.
Avi Melamed: Of course. So let's open this session to your questions.
Avi Melamed: Oh, stages you all felt who is navigating them?
Avi Melamed: Miranda.
Miranda: Hi, Nagar, thank you so much. That was that was really great.
negar.mojtahedi: Oh, thanks!
Miranda: Questions on that.
Miranda: So it's really hard to narrow it down. But I want to ask one that I feel like intersects with your personal objectives as well as the broader context in which you were commenting upon so
Miranda: what is the role and impact of the Iranian people who are outside Iran and their successive generations, just like you are where you were born in Canada. But your family is from Iran, and you obviously feel a closeness with the heritage and the country. So what is the role and the impact of people like you and your work on the current situation in Iran? And personally, why do you choose to be an investigative journalist that reports and analyzes Iranian news on a global platform.
negar.mojtahedi: Miranda. Those are both excellent questions. So I think that we can play a huge role. And so, for example, anytime, you do a story to either combat negative stereotypes. You're showing people, you know, you're helping to bridge that gap. And I think to really bring people together to show. Hey? You know, we're more alike than we are different. And we can all really get along, you know, anytime you do a story to expose
negar.mojtahedi: kind of the human rights abuses or what is happening back in Iran. You're also helping the people of Iran by giving them agency and giving them a voice because they don't have a voice for themselves, unfortunately, and the news that is coming out of Iran is propaganda obviously controlled by the State. So I think in that sense. You know, there is a very important role to play, and I guess my only hope was that in terms of the opposition itself and the role that they can play.
negar.mojtahedi: Is it that they can get along a lot better and start to to
negar.mojtahedi: put aside some of those differences as well? Now.
negar.mojtahedi: kind of my journey was, you know, I worked in local and national news. And then, when things started happening with the Masa Amity revolution, I started to really kind of nationalize and localize the stories, and to show people in Canada like, look at how you're connected to what is happening right now in Iran. And I think that's really important is in terms of. And that led me then later to Iran international English to do it on a bigger scale.
negar.mojtahedi: But just that concept. No matter if you're at a very local station or a big international station or national, whatever it doesn't matter. Radio TV print is is to really show people that you are connected, and whatever is happening on that part of the world will eventually impact you here. And I think we saw that in the most
negar.mojtahedi: in terms of modern American history. You saw that in the most tragic way possible when 9, 11 happened, for example. So it is important for American and Canadian North American people to pay attention and to have positive contributions.
Avi Melamed: Thank you, Brooklyn.
Brooklyn Tory: Hi! It's actually quite amazing. I had a bunch of questions, and then in the last, like 5 min of your talk, you answered like most of them.
Brooklyn Tory: So I was going to ask about Putin. And then I was going to ask about nuclear politics, etc.
negar.mojtahedi: I was reading your mind.
Brooklyn Tory: Yeah. So I I really, I guess I have 1 1 question.
Brooklyn Tory: do you do you think that
Brooklyn Tory: these and this is in elaboration to Avi's question on the Palestinian issue. Do you think that these terrorist organizations, supported by the Iranian regime, like the Houthis, the Hamas Hezbollah etc? Do they have an accurate sense of where they.
Brooklyn Tory: where they are, their position within the axis of resistance within the Iranian leadership? Or are they being misled? And if so, by what sort of
Brooklyn Tory: logic.
negar.mojtahedi: Well, that's an interesting question, Brooklyn, because I think that each one of them has like a very different relationship with Iran. So when I've spoken to experts about like Hezbollah, for example, the way that they describe the relationship between Iran and Hezbollah. It's kind of like, you know. Iran is like the CEO and Hezbollah, is kind of like the just under them or whatever. So I mean, they really helped to to create Hezbollah
negar.mojtahedi: after the 79 revolution, and this and that, and they have that ideological tie, and they're very much connected to Hezbollah as well. So I think
negar.mojtahedi: and so over. According to someone I spoke to at the State Department, I think over 70% of Hezbollah's revenue. It comes from Iran actually. And the rest is done through drug trafficking and sex trafficking and all that kind of stuff. So I think they have a very close connection that that is going to be even more than with Hamas being Sunni led. And of course, Hamas, as you know, comes from, originates from the Muslim brotherhood, and then the Houthis. They are
negar.mojtahedi: not as controlled by Iran, I think, as the other proxies in terms of what I've heard from from researchers and analysts, and they also have some influence from from Russia, for example, but it's very apparent that Iran is is arming them and funding them and and using them and taking advantage of them as well, while, you know, nobody really talks about how you know the people of Yemen are starving, for example.
negar.mojtahedi: So I think in that sense they they do kind of have an idea of where they stand with Iran, and that helps to kind of foment and shape their relationships, and how they interact with Iran as well.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. More questions, comments.
Avi Melamed: something that he would like Nega to.
Avi Melamed: Oh, elaborate on.
Brooklyn Tory: Other question, if nobody else does.
Brooklyn Tory: I'm wondering how, in terms of Masa Amini's death.
Brooklyn Tory: how much of a shift was there in terms of actual change in Iran or versus how much of that was a was a perspective shift in the Western hemispheres. As a result of that event.
negar.mojtahedi: Great question, because to be honest like the
negar.mojtahedi: people. So a lot of people think, oh, well, the the mass Amini revolution is dead. Now it's not, it's it's still happening. And it has had an impact. So, for example, the leadership in Iran has a little bit, I should say, and don't get me wrong. There's still an oppressive, whatever regime. But they have less kind of ownership on people. So majority of people when you're looking at videos and stuff, or when I, when I talk to extended family and friends, and this and that in Iran, majority of women are not wearing their headscarves at all, and they're going out. And
negar.mojtahedi: they're not necessarily being arrested or beaten, or this and that are being taken by the Morality Police, also known as Gesha, Ershod and Farsi, because they've kind of lost control when when you do things, you know, in in mass, in mass, it just it creates more problems for the regime itself. And you know
negar.mojtahedi: they've even said things like, for example, javo Zarif, who's in many ways like the chief propagandicus of of the Iranian regime is technically the Vice President. But he goes on these interviews with Western networks, and and he puts out a lot of
negar.mojtahedi: you know Mistruths, but at the same time even the fact that he would say that they want to open up things more for Iranian people. Speaks to the fact of how weak the regime has become, and how they fear their own people as well. So the society has changed. It's a lot more
negar.mojtahedi: open, I would say, but still repressive. But that's the, I think. Unfortunately, the the brilliance of of the Iranian regime for their for their own survival ship is that they give them enough freedom, that there's not going to be like a massive, massive result revolt, but not enough that there's actual reach, real change. So there's not actually the laws in Iran are. It's
negar.mojtahedi: I would label it as gender apartheid, right? Like the the laws in Iran. Still go against you know women, for example, to minorities and all that kind of stuff you've got gender apartheid religious apartheid. There's so many different types of apartheids in Iran. So there hasn't been real change, I want to say, but
negar.mojtahedi: the society has been a little bit more emboldened, and they're taking a little bit more greater risks, and one of that is being that the majority of people in the in the big cities, for example, are not wearing their hijabs when when they go outside.
negar.mojtahedi: That's just something no worries.
Avi Melamed: Oh!
negar.mojtahedi: Thanks.
Avi Melamed: In our fellowship. We have 2 kinds of people. We have young people like the chairman of the Board and youngers. So now, Carl, please go ahead. He learned how to raise his hand.
Carl J. Chiappa: Thank you very much. Negar. Thank you very much for for all your comments.
Carl J. Chiappa: I have 2 questions for you. The 1st is about the opposition, and I wonder if you can. I understand about the dissension and rivalry. But can you tell us a little more about the substantive issues is the infighting and rivalry
Carl J. Chiappa: personal, because this person wants to be the head of it, or that person wants to be the head of it? Or are they substantive policy issues that, you know, are really motivating the opposition and and therefore causing a a problem with their you, uniting against the regime?
Carl J. Chiappa: 4.
negar.mojtahedi: That is such a. It's a little bit of everything. But that is such an excellent question. And the way that you phrased it really helps me like, you've almost kind of enlightened me by asking that question, because in trying to answer it, I thought to myself.
negar.mojtahedi: Oh, my God!
negar.mojtahedi: They don't even talk about policy. This is the problem. This is how weak the opposition is is that we're not even at that phase where we're talking about actual policy issues. How far behind is the opposition that that is, that in and of itself is not an issue. So thank you. Because that question actually, just kind of a, you know, a light bulb just went off in my head. And it makes me even more sad. Actually, when I think about it now, because you're right. They're not having
negar.mojtahedi: policy issue fights. It's just they just don't get along because of a power thing. Some of it, I would think. And then also.
negar.mojtahedi: some people are saying that the Crown Prince needs to become the king. Others are saying, Well, why don't we have like a democracy and whatnot, and let the people decide. And and he himself has said, You know I don't want to become king, and if you need support, I will be forming some sort of like we can have like a transitional council, and I can rule up until that period of time, and then we can have something after.
negar.mojtahedi: But it's just so childish when I think about it, the infighting. And and they people are like bullies, and especially online in front of people, and the regime is really capitalizing on this, because they'll say, Okay, well, if you are not believing that Reza Pahlavi should be king, therefore you are with the regime, and it's not like that. It's more complex, right? But I wish that they would be having fights over policy. But
negar.mojtahedi: we're not even at that stage, and and how frightening is that that you have this! As I said before, you have all the ingredients in place for a revolution, and then you have an opposition that hasn't even written down, you know.
negar.mojtahedi: kind of a manifesto or policies that they would like to bring in place. So there is no actual institutions that would help to replace it. So they're very far behind if they can't even have a fight over policy.
negar.mojtahedi: So thank you.
Carl J. Chiappa: That. No, thank you for that. That's I mean, if that's the reality, it it it is, as you say, a very troubling one.
Carl J. Chiappa: So let me let me ask about the it. Actually, what you just said was a perfect segue into my second question. There are obviously lots of discussions. Over a possible attack
Carl J. Chiappa: on Iran's nuclear facilities, and I got a big rundown recently by someone who's quite expert on the air on the topic, and whether it'll happen or not. Of course I have no idea, and whether will happen.
Carl J. Chiappa: excuse me by Israel doing it with the tacit approval of the United States or the United States will be involved with it. I personally happen to agree with everything you said about the trump administration.
Carl J. Chiappa: But here's my question.
Carl J. Chiappa: Usually, if there is a foreign attack on a country.
Carl J. Chiappa: one of the fears is whether it's Israel or Israel and the United States go in and blow up the nuclear facilities, the Icbm facilities that unites the people against an external entity.
Carl J. Chiappa: I have the feeling that that may not be the case with Iran. But when when you talk about the ingredients of revolution.
Carl J. Chiappa: if that were to happen, and if there was a blow against the infrastructure that has cost
Carl J. Chiappa: billions upon billions of Iranian dollars over the years following. Of course, the attack that has damaged the air defenses and everything else. Do you think that's enough to cause the regime to fall? Or do you think the irg, for example, simply can't afford the regime to fall because the consequences for them of
Carl J. Chiappa: payback for all of the things they've done to the Iranian people over the years is simply too great. In other words, the shorter version of the question is an attack on the Iranian nuclear facility, especially if they were successful, likely to
Carl J. Chiappa: embolden the regime? Or do you think it causes a crack that causes the regime to collapse.
negar.mojtahedi: That's another amazing question. And I remember when Israel did the counter attack in Iran, where they took out the S. 300 Russian air defense systems.
negar.mojtahedi: A lot of Iranians are quite disappointed and were saying, Oh, Israel didn't do enough, they thought, after all this, you know, back and forth, and Netanyahu going on camera making these messages to the Iranian people. They're like, oh, they're going to do something big. And they're like, that's it. That was it, that's all you did, or they were actually quite a lot of I remember older people in Iran were like we didn't even hear the attack.
negar.mojtahedi: I slept through the night like, what was that like this? Is it? And then so it's interesting, because, you know, regular, everyday Iranian people do want that kind of thing to happen, because, you know, unlike
negar.mojtahedi: the Hamas infrastructure and whatnot in Gaza. And of course, it being geographically a much smaller place. Things are spread out in Iran. So their nuclear facilities are not near.
negar.mojtahedi: like, you know, civilian populations. That being said, of course, there could be issues with pollution, and this and that for years to come, etc. Etc. That's a different story. But I think that the nuke, because a nuclear issue is not an issue for everyday majority of Iranian people.
negar.mojtahedi: taking that from the Iranian regime itself, I think, in a way, would do very little to bring about actual change in Iran, because it's not really a big issue for Iranian people. And also the nuclear issue has nothing to do in terms of how oppressive and how controlling and how much power the regime has over the people of Iran. So they're still going to unfortunately continue to have that. But I think it would be a big blow
negar.mojtahedi: to the regime internally, and I and I think that it may cause some infighting and whatnot between amongst themselves, and would do a lot to their pride. I think it would do a lot to their.
negar.mojtahedi: I guess.
negar.mojtahedi: foreign policy, because with this whole access of resistance really falling apart now, a lot of analysts are saying, well, that's going to make them go, you know. Dash to a nuclear bomb so that they can have power. So in that sense as a regional hegemonic power. It would do a big blow to them, and internally again, but not in terms of their control over the people of Iran, because their nuclear program has nothing really to do with
negar.mojtahedi: their oppression and repression and whatnot over of Iran itself.
Carl J. Chiappa: I'll just take 10 seconds more of your time. I was really thinking in terms of 2 things, prestige and 2. The fury of saying, you spent all this money on Hezbollah. You spent all this money on Hamas. You spent all this money on Syria. You spent all this money on the nuclear programs. And you know what the net result was. We didn't get anything out of it.
negar.mojtahedi: Yeah.
Carl J. Chiappa: And it was really money wasted.
Carl J. Chiappa: What I don't know, and perhaps you have thought about it is okay. You've wasted a lot of money, they would not be the 1st government in the world that wasted a lot of money. The question is, how do you how do you cause that to coalesce into a force that would cause the government to collapse. And and that's a different subject, I guess.
negar.mojtahedi: In terms of causing, I think, to create again more of that maximum support for Iranian people, and to kind of make use of that in terms of being a moment to help them to rise up, but without that support, for for Iranian people like, I said, like, for example, creating a strike fund, and this and that. I don't think they'll be able to make much use out of that moment, because it's just not really an issue for for Iranian people in general.
negar.mojtahedi: so I don't think it would rally them up and make them so angry that they're gonna go out. No, I I don't. I don't think so, because they already know what a waste all of this is.
Carl J. Chiappa: Thank you very, very much, very.
Carl J. Chiappa: Oh, thank you.
Carl J. Chiappa: Very enlightening answers. Thank you.
Avi Melamed: So we are almost done. But I do want to, you know, of course, enable 2 more questions. We saw Bahij and Miranda. These are the last 2 questions I want to be respectful of everybody's time. So Bahij, go ahead. And then, concluding question, Miranda.
Bahij S.: Hi! Can you talk a little bit more about the different Iranian factions of like resistance? I know there's like the Pahlavi party. There's like Mek. There's 2 dev like. What are some of the key differences between them all.
negar.mojtahedi: Yeah, for sure. Hi, Bahij. So that's a great question. Because so yes, you've got kind of the the Palhevi supporters that want to bring about potentially a constitutional monarchy. You've got the people who say, Okay, let's bring Mr. Palhavi over as kind of like a transitional counsel, and then kind of decide which is the rhetoric that he's been putting out there as well, because he he spent most of his life in the United States, and he's he's now, you know, very all American guy, and I don't think he wants that kind of responsibility in terms of what he has said himself
negar.mojtahedi: in public. I don't know personally what he's thinking, but and and then yes, I'm glad you brought up the mek so as
negar.mojtahedi: as much as there is infighting and and amongst the Opposition forces themselves in Iranian society.
negar.mojtahedi: The one thing that the majority of Iranians agree on is their hatred for the mek, like they cannot stand. The Mujahide like this is like they even you'll see Iranian people say they're like the regime, but even worse, because they've got the cult factor in it. And my confusion, and what I don't understand is why these
negar.mojtahedi: Western politicians, you know Lindsay, Lindsey, Graham, you know, even Bolton and some Democrats. They're Giuliani, like they're huge supporters of of Mac, and I know that for each, you know, Mike Pence even did a huge speaking thing with them, and they make tons of money off of Mac whenever they do these speaking tours, and I asked one of the politicians it was Congressman
negar.mojtahedi: Brad Sherman, a Democrat from California, and I did the interview with him a day after he had spoken at some sort of met conference in the United States, and I go well, why do you guys? Why are you supporting them? Given that according to your own intelligence, they had killed Americans, I don't understand. And and then he says to me, well, that was in the 19 seventies.
negar.mojtahedi: and he gave me an answer that made me think, Oh, is this what they think of Middle Eastern people. He goes and look at Hts. Right now in Syria. We're supporting them. They were. They were terrorists before. And it's the Middle East. You guys all kill each other anyway. So what am I supposed to do? Not support one party over another because of killings, I mean.
negar.mojtahedi: like I was. I was floored. I couldn't believe that, was his answer. So basically, he thinks we are so violent in the Middle East, they're all gonna have. We're all going to end up killing each other anyways, so might as well go with one of the opposition forces if they say they're democratic. And then he said, well, they haven't done any of those killings since the 19 seventies. They're they're democratic, I was like, well, that's what they're saying. But they still even Us. State department has come out and talked about
negar.mojtahedi: the the recruitment process, and how Mac is separating families like this, and and the policies that they have in place of abuse, and all of that has come out through the Us. State Department itself, and
negar.mojtahedi: it didn't seem to faze him, and he kept going back to. Well, we're talking to Hcs right now, and they were, you know, terrorists as well. So people can change, and that was kind of his whole thing, but anyways, in terms of their differences. People really don't like mek it's it's it's not popular at all. I within Iran itself. They don't trust them as all. And then you've got
negar.mojtahedi: people who who really want to bring about some sort of democracy. But there's no actual group. There's just a bunch of different kind of like opposition figures who who go out and and speak on
negar.mojtahedi: Western media like Masi Elijah and all these people. But they don't actually belong to any kind of party or anything, so they're not necessarily like an opposition force in that sense, but they are helping when they expose all these human rights abuses and whatnot, and what the regime is doing. They are helping the opposition
negar.mojtahedi: in general by by doing so. But there's no clear, like actual opposition force in that sense. And then you've got the people rallying behind behind pat laby as well. So yeah, no, it's it's it's interesting. It's interesting. Divide there.
Avi Melamed: In regard you just mentioned market a couple of times just very shortly. If you could explain
Avi Melamed: what what Mac is, what do they stand for?
negar.mojtahedi: They're like, an
negar.mojtahedi: there's almost like an Islamo fascist left wing Communist type of. I would describe them more as like a cult, and they were a part of the revolution itself with Khomeini, and then
negar.mojtahedi: they broke off. And one of the reasons why I think Iranians have such a disdain for Mek. Is that sorry if you hear the ambulance in the background is that they actually supported Iraq during the Iran Iraq Revolution, and one thing that the Crown Prince did during that period of time. Because he was trained as a pilot, he said, I am willing to go to Iran
negar.mojtahedi: and fight
negar.mojtahedi: for the Islamic Republic of Iran, because I'm thinking of for the Iranian people, and I'm willing to put aside, you know.
negar.mojtahedi: everything that had happened to the country and my family, and actually fight for the people of Iran. So that that's an interesting difference between the 2 of them. Right there.
Avi Melamed: Yes, we are turning now to the final question by Miranda to conclude this session, 1 1 short note that I would like to say, I want you please to also follow the immediate regional perspectives, particularly in the context of Iran and Afghanistan. Under the Taliban rule there is a lot of ins and outs in this whole story very significant to follow. So I do encourage you to follow that it's very significant, Miranda. Please.
negar.mojtahedi: Oh, you're on mute, Miranda.
Miranda: Thank you for answering the second question. It kind of follows in the trail of Iranian identity what the opposition asserts. So my question is because you talked about how some Iranians are turning to Zoroastrianism because they
Miranda: it's more of anti-islam is more of the anti-iranian regime. That's the message that I took. So I was wondering what is the dominant identity that is asserted as Iranian among the population right now? Like? Is it religious? Is it political? Is it ethnic like? Because I see that as very much a unifying force in history as a way to
Miranda: really mobilize people and really get a movement going, and I know you've talked about how revolution can be far off, and I know the whole geopolitical economic things going on. But
Miranda: is it? Is it really just anti-iranian regime. And then all these different groups just have different definitions of what that is.
negar.mojtahedi: Great question. I think that for, like everyday Iranian people, so not people who are part of some sort of Opposition force, but oppose the regime and wanted to go. But whatever they're living in the West, and they they work as a teller in the bank. So just a very average average day person is that their identity is really formed so much on anything that's
negar.mojtahedi: that's pre-islamic Iran. And that could be not necessarily being Zoroastrian, but really celebrating in a lot of the Zoroastrian traditions. Like, for example, Nodus is a pre-islamic tradition. You know, Char Sham Bisudi, where it's on the eve of the Wednesday before the New Year, you know, we jump over fire, and it's a method of like cleansing yourself of all the bad from last year, and bringing in all the good
negar.mojtahedi: the of the New Year, because fire is very central to the Zoroastrian faith. So really anything that they identify as Persian. And it's interesting, because
negar.mojtahedi: you know, the term Persian itself
negar.mojtahedi: means like Parse, like, which is Greek, say, like farce. So you're from from the Farsi speaking people. So you can be Iranian and be a Persian, Iranian, for example, meaning that you come from that that farce ethnic group, or you could be, you know, Kurdish and be Iranian. You could be Laura, and be Iranian, Azerbaijani, and be Iranian, and majority of Iranians, like myself included, are a mix of a lot of these different types of ethnic backgrounds.
negar.mojtahedi: So that's like the true meaning of Persian. However, in popular culture a lot of people refer to themselves as Persian, even if they're ethnically Azerbaijani, because
negar.mojtahedi: when they use the term Iranian, the definition, the connotation is just different in people's minds. So you know, when you think a lot of people when they hear the term Iranian they think of, you know
negar.mojtahedi: women in dark veils and saying Death to America, and this and that when they think of Persian. They think, maybe, of the Persian Empire of, you know, fine silk carpets. It just has a different connotation in your mind. That's not actually the real term for it. As I said, it comes from Farsi speaking people, but that's how a lot of people will introduce themselves oftentimes for that reason as like an identity thing.
negar.mojtahedi: But anything that really is pre-islamic. They love to just. And and the Persian poets. That's a big thing. Poetry is a huge thing in Iranian culture. It always has been, and it always will.
negar.mojtahedi: Music, literature, art, and all those things are actually really flourishing even in Iran itself right now. The art scene, the theater scene, music. It's incredible because they have this like underground
negar.mojtahedi: you know, system for for showcasing their their works. And I feel that in repressive regimes even you saw this, you know, before in in you know, Eastern Europe under under Soviet rule, was that art would really flourish, and they're really turning again to the motifs of their their Persian
negar.mojtahedi: history and pre-islamic history.
Avi Melamed: Well, I think this is an amazing way to conclude an amazing conversation. I want to thank our guest Educator Nagar, for an outstanding, intriguing unique perspectives and inside perspective of one of the most I would say, interesting and intriguing places in the world.
Avi Melamed: I want to thank you for your participation and your questions. This has been session. 5
Avi Melamed: for our program. The next session next week, session 6. The guest educator will be Egyptian scholar and activist, Dalia Ziade.
Avi Melamed: And we are going to talk about an interesting aspect.
Avi Melamed: And that is the way that the and
Avi Melamed: Middle East politics culture trends public opinion, and so on, and so on, actually have been.
Avi Melamed: and shaping the trajectory of the Israeli-palestinian conflict.
negar.mojtahedi: Oh, can I add 2 more things? Sorry before I just wanted to to go before I forget 1st 2 of the other questions before in terms of of Mec. I think maybe another reason why a lot of Western politicians support them is because one thing that in terms of their differences with the other opposition forces is Mec. Is very organized. They really know what they're doing, and they're also armed.
negar.mojtahedi: So that's another thing like they have a base in Albania, and this and that with a lot of armaments that they got from the former Soviet Union. And then to answer Miranda's question again, you'll notice that people born after the Revolution have names that older generation Iranians have never even heard of, like Shima and Hasti, and all these types of names that are very ancient, very ancient Persian names. So that's another thing that Iranians inside Iran itself are doing. I actually have a colleague
negar.mojtahedi: whose name is Aiden, but I heard his father call him Dalmun, and I go. What's your name? And he goes oh, well, legally under my passport. I'm Oyiden, but my parents call me Dahmun, because under the Islamic Republic they would not allow them to name their son the name Dahmun, because it's a Persian name.
negar.mojtahedi: It's a very Persian name, they said, No, you have to have some sort of Islamic name. So he actually had to change his name. So these are the little things that happen, and the nuances that are happening every day in Iranian society that goes back to this kind of Persian nationalism, even in Iran itself. Sorry, I just wanted to answer that before I forgot.
Avi Melamed: Okay, nigar, if if people are still staying and they can stay. And if you have something else that you would like to add, you're very welcome.
negar.mojtahedi: Yeah, no, that that was. It just came to my head. All of a sudden I said, to answer those 2 questions I had to add that in.
Avi Melamed: The way I found your notes about, like many other notes and observations, also the one that you said about the names. I found it to be very intriguing and interesting, because many times, you know, we are looking for all these like seemingly not important, but basically quite important. You know, expressions of changes
Avi Melamed: that sometimes seems to be like small in the scheme of like large things, but they are very substantial. It could be an indicator for other significant things that are happening. I think. By the way, there is something similar with the Kurds right in Iran, something that also forbid Kurds from.
negar.mojtahedi: Yes, they don't. They don't let them have their own their own names most of the time, if it's if it's very Kurdish or something, for example. But that's interesting, that that change. If you look at pre-islamic like even look at the Pallavi. That's a very Muslim name. A lot of female names. Those are all Arabic names. They're not Iranian. So
negar.mojtahedi: it's it's definitely an expression of change like you, said small but significant.
Brooklyn Tory: Sorry. I just had a quick, clarifying question to what you added right at the end, because I was under the impression that Mek was supposed to be disarmed in the early 2 thousands, so was that.
negar.mojtahedi: They say so.
Brooklyn Tory: Okay.
negar.mojtahedi: That's what they say that they don't have it. But if you, if you look at news reports and this and that of their their base in Albania, and this and that they they seem to be armed as of as of now. But you're right. Congressman Sherman told me the same thing that they're not armed anymore. So.
Brooklyn Tory: Oh, okay.
negar.mojtahedi: But but there are mek in Iran, for example, very small percentage, and they're armed.
Brooklyn Tory: Hmm.
negar.mojtahedi: And I believe that they yeah, no. And I believe they've done some some work with with, from from my understanding with Mossad as well, because it's because they are armed, and it's it's easier to to get to them to be able to to do things within Iran itself.
Avi Melamed: I would add in that regard, like there are 3 constant kind of like ongoing centers of unrest violently in Iran. One is the Kurdish.
negar.mojtahedi: Yes.
Avi Melamed: Out of Iran. The other one is Balochistan, and the.
negar.mojtahedi: Oh, yeah, the way they treat Baluch is just. It's unbelievable, unbelievable, even worse than Kurds.
Avi Melamed: Yes, and the 3rd one, which is very significant. Istan.
negar.mojtahedi: Yes.
Avi Melamed: There was. These are 3 centers of constant unrest in Iran.
Avi Melamed: These are places that have been discriminated, badly discriminated against by the mullah regime, also something very interesting.
negar.mojtahedi: Even before, too, even prior in 1979 same. They were not treating Balucha well at all. They had this. They treated them as if they were all terrorists. This is the image that they were. They're teaching in schools at the time, too.
Avi Melamed: Yeah. Yeah.
Avi Melamed: So again, as I said, I mean, we could have gone on and on. And this is a fascinating discussion. We want to be respectful of your time ago and the time of our fellows.
Avi Melamed: And so once again, I want to thank you so much for this wonderful discussion.
Avi Melamed: and, as I said next week, that is the other session. Sesh 6.
Avi Melamed: We are all very much looking forward to our next session. Until then. Thank you so much. Take care, be well, bye, bye, have a good week.
negar.mojtahedi: Thanks. Bye, thank you.
Brooklyn Tory: Thank you so much.
negar.mojtahedi: Thanks.
Ben Monroe: Are you saying? Rc, bad tashkar.
negar.mojtahedi: Oh, thank you, that's excellent. Great work.
negar.mojtahedi: Bye, guys.