Avi Melamed: Yes, okay, great, awesome. Sorry for that. The regular routine fighting, Fighting tech Sam's laughing send session 7. The West Bank and Gaza, and insider perspective. Our distinguished guest, educator of the day, is Mr. Mohammed Najib, as always. Shortly, I will formally introduce Mr. Najib
Avi Melamed: as always. I want to do some framing to our conversation. I do need to emphasize. This is not a session about the Israeli-palestinian conflict. It is a session about the inner Palestinian story, and therefore I would focus particularly along the line of exploring.
Avi Melamed: mostly focusing on the issue of Palestinian nationalism in kind of like milestones through the 20th century in our time. So as an opening point already, we may remember, we talked about Post Ww. One
Avi Melamed: introduction of nationalism to the region, the downfall of Turkish Ottoman Empire, and the growing impact of Western powers, and one of the things that you may remember that we mentioned in our previous session that we had
Avi Melamed: was that shortly after, already, towards the end of World War One. As the whole discussion started in this region regarding nationalism, and so on. One of the conflict, I would say, dominant or over, you know, arching concept was the concept of Great Syria. Now, this is a concept that actually envisioned that
Avi Melamed: the area that is known as sham, which is today known as Syria and Transjordan, and Israel and Palestinian territories, and Lebanon. The whole idea was that that would be actually one big monarchy sort of speaking under the leadership of
Avi Melamed: the Hashima dynasty
Avi Melamed: that is originally from the Arab peninsula and back. Then the leader of the dynasty, Sharif Hussein in the Hejaz, in the Arab Peninsula. In return for his active cooperation with Western powers to defeat the Turkish German axis, he was rewarded, sort of speaking with the promise that
Avi Melamed: his son Faisal, his 3rd son, will be the king of this monarchy of this great Syria.
Avi Melamed: And so around the 1919 20, th the beginning of the 20, th 1920. There has been some kind of like that, was the discussion. And that discussion basically was, quite relatively speaking, also welcomed by Arabs in in Palestine. Back, then slash the land of Israel. But, however, the bottom line of this whole story was that this whole thing very quickly disintegrated, faisal actually was
Avi Melamed: outpost by the French. And he basically moved and become later on the King of Iraq. But that basically is a different story. We wouldn't elaborate on that. So
Avi Melamed: I'm bringing that because the context is the early seeds of Palestinian nationalism, and in that regard I can tell that there has been an ongoing debate within scholars regarding this whole thing of
Avi Melamed: Palestinian movement? When can we identify early seats for Palestinian independence, independent movement, or can we not? And that has been a debate that has been going on for a long period of time. However, I think it's quite clear that when we look at those years in the
Avi Melamed: 19 twenties and thirties. I think it's very clear that already, back in 19 twenties, we could see that if we cannot talk about still Palestinian nationalism in the context of modern statehood. So speaking, we could definitely see that there has been a very strong Islamic
Avi Melamed: sentiment that has basically become a very unifying sort of speaking, or some sort of like common denominator within Arabs in Palestine, slash the land of Israel. But that period of time
Avi Melamed: and the major clear symbol for that is the story of Al-aqsa, the Temple, Mount Compound, or Haram Sharif, located in Jerusalem. As you may know, this is the 3rd holiest site of Muslims after Mecca and Medina. You see in front of you this photo. By the way, the golden dome that you see this is not Al-aqsa. Al-aqsa is actually the dome that you see to the left hand side, which is the
Avi Melamed: the gray dome of this mosque Al-aqsa, the Golden One is actually the dome of the Roku in Arabic. In all this compound, located in the old city in Jerusalem, a very small compound. All this compound is actually Al-aqsa Haram Sharif, as I mentioned before. Already, back in the 19 twenties, the Grand Mufti Mufti is the senior position of religious
Avi Melamed: authority.
Avi Melamed: Aji Mohammad Amin Al Husseini basically recognized the significance of Al-aqsa and the concept of defending Al-aqsa is something that can be a common denominator for Arab Palestinians, Palestinians, Arabs in Palestine.
Avi Melamed: and he centered his activity and position, his leadership. Back, then, around this whole issue of defending Al. Aqsa. Basically echoing the sentiment that Al Aqsa. Is under in danger because of the Zionist movement.
Avi Melamed: and actually he was very successful in harvesting both political and economic support. He arranged in 1931
Avi Melamed: a trans-islamic pan-islamic conference in Haifa to basically echoes this whole thing of defending Al-aqsa and gain a lot of support, popularity, and political.
Avi Melamed: However, during that period of time, though there has been a lot of hustle bustle going on within Arab, Palestinians or Arabs in Palestine. It is very difficult yet back to start identifying seeds, concrete seeds for the emerging of
Avi Melamed: Palestinian nationalism. This is something that is going to emerge later on.
Avi Melamed: when we get to the 19 thirties, one of the most significant pivotal episode during that decade is obviously what is known as the Arab revolt. The revolt of Arabs in Palestine against the British rule over Palestine, slash the land of Israel. We are looking at period of time between, roughly speaking, 1935 to 1930,
Avi Melamed: 9, and some scholars already refer to that revolt as clearly the early seeds of Palestinian nationalism. However, there are others that are still skeptic about that. When again, you look at those events in 1935, 1939,
Avi Melamed: there has been 2 interesting phenomena regarding that one is the fact that indeed it was guided by some sort of like Arab Palestinian leadership with an external involvement of Arab leaders from Iraq and from Jordan, and from other places in Syria, and there has been, indeed, a very clear sentiment of a very organized and orchestrated uprising
Avi Melamed: that basically was presenting the growing resentment and objection of Arabs in Palestine to the whole Zionist movement, to the changes on the ground that happens in the thirties, their rejection to the United Kingdom policy that they have viewed as a biased one
Avi Melamed: and damaging their interest. And so in that regard definitely, there has been a very clear of an organized, orchestrated, and unifying sort of speaking sense of that moment, of that Arab revolt. However, at the same time.
Avi Melamed: What happened was that very quickly this whole process was disintegrating, involving, among other things, a very significant setback for both economic and social fabric of the Arab in Palestine, resulting or refueling power struggle between different centers of powers in Jerusalem, in Nablus, in Samaria, in the center, in the northern part of the
Avi Melamed: west bank, the southern part of the west bank, and one other thing that was also very notable is that going back to the Islamic sentiment. One of the major episode, an interesting episode during those rough years was the story of
Avi Melamed: the Esdeen and Qassam group, a group of
Avi Melamed: militants that have been centered around a Syrian descendant, charismatic Islamic preacher that has been operating as part of this Arab revolt in the mid 19 thirties until they have been eliminated by the by the British forces. If the name sounds for you very familiar, you are right.
Avi Melamed: as Adin Al Qassam is actually the the name of Hamas a military power, and we'll get to that. Talking about it later on.
Avi Melamed: One of the major outcome of this whole episode of 1935, 1939 Arab revolt was that actually
Avi Melamed: you could clearly see how, following that the Nationalist sentiment of Palestinians in Palestine has been significantly suffering a setback and the most significant outcome of that was that, in fact, until the late fifties, and I would even say to the late sixties.
Avi Melamed: you could see very clearly how the issue that is called the Palestinian cause was mostly an Arab task. As a fact, Arab countries, and particularly Egypt, under the leadership of Gamal Abdel Nasser that led the whole camp of Pan-arabism. We talked about it in different sessions.
Avi Melamed: was basically taking upon itself this whole task of liberating Palestine, the one that will charge the solution of what is called as the Palestinian cause, Al-qadil Palestinia, and that basically kind of like set the Palestinian nationalism in a backseat sort of speaking, and sort of like kind of like
Avi Melamed: Palestinian nationalism into some sort of like stagnation.
Avi Melamed: that it will take some decades.
Avi Melamed: mostly until the end of the fifties and onwards before we will see the rise of, or the Rerise sort of speaking of, Palestinian nationalism. The pivotal moment in that regard is in the end of the fifties in Kuwait, the establishing of the Fatah organization fatah organization.
Avi Melamed: by the way, interesting. The word Fatah in Arabic means victory and occupation and achievements, military achievements. But it's the initials are the movement for the liberation of Palestine. But they basically reversed the initials because the meaning of the word hatf, if it's other way around, means a sudden death.
Avi Melamed: So they changed basically to, as I said before, and its founder yasser, Arafat, later on, is going to become the chairman of the Plo and the Palestinian President in 1964, the Plo is established by Egypt. Basically, that was a reflection of an inner Arab politics and power struggle back then, where, to a large extent, the Plo was kind of like established as a counter to the Fatah.
Avi Melamed: But basically, whatever later happened was that the Fatah became actually the major spine of the Plo. With other Palestinian organizations. You could see the symbols of those organizations that became a part of the Plo in 1974. The Rabat Summit actually is a milestone, because.
Avi Melamed: following the 67 war in the Khatom Summit, the Arab world basically make the famous 3 Nos and no recognition, no discussions and no exceptions of the state of Israel and Jordan has been still viewed as the one that is the custodian. In a way, sort of speaking of the issue of the Palestinian case that is going to change. In 1974, the Rabbat Summit, and
Avi Melamed: the the basically the formal and granting formal, the Palestinian Liberation organization, the representation and leadership of the Palestinian people
Avi Melamed: in course of time that is going to result in for different reasons. The 1st Intifada, what is also known as the Stone Intifada between 1987 and 1993. That was a major outbreak of riots, violence in the west bank in Gaza Strip in East Jerusalem. Again, the Intifada, very similar to the 1935 Arab revolt was
Avi Melamed: structured and organized by in a very structured way, at least for a long period of time. There has been a committee that basically was ruling over this whole process of Nintifara, and definitely, in that period of time, at least for a long period of time, it was very organized. Yet again, like in 1935, 1939.
Avi Melamed: At some point there was a fatigue. There was process, or the phenomenon of disintegration of Palestinian society as an outcome of that, and that was one of the reasons that resulted in the end of the day leading to the point of the Israeli Plo agreement of 1993, known as the Oslo accords. When you look at the impact of the Palestinian Intifada, the 1st Intifada.
Avi Melamed: you could see that it has very significant impact, I would say, in the context of consolidating Palestinian national identity, it boosted worldwide solidarity with Palestinian. It raised the new local Palestinian leadership.
Avi Melamed: It considered, as I said, sense of Palestinian particularistic nationalism as part of the ethos of the national movement. It strengthened also the Palestinian Islamic camp, something that is going to do a lot with what's going to come off later. And he actually paved the road towards diplomatic effort.
Avi Melamed: But at the same time, as I mentioned before. It actually also paved the road for what is going to become the inner Palestinian power struggle between 2 major players, Hamas and Islamic Hamas on the one hand and Palestinian authority in its major spine, Fatah. On the other hand.
Avi Melamed: both are basically coming from a different ideological perspective. Hamas, we talked about the whole issue of the Islamic. The concept of Caliphate
Avi Melamed: forming this global entity is based upon, not the parliamentary legislative forces, but the Sharia law, and, on the other hand, Fatah, that came actually from the hub of Arab independent nationalism, including some aspects of Secularism, and basically stood for a totally different ideologies. And basically already back. Then, in the late eighties, Hamas is established in 1988 in Gaza Strip in 1987,
Avi Melamed: and already back. Then, in the midst of the 1st Intifada we are witnessing the birth of Hamas and the birth of actually what is going to result in a huge power struggle, an inner power struggle within within Palestinians.
Avi Melamed: Indeed, that power struggle was one of the main, if not the main reason, that actually led to the second major Intifada, 2,000 2,006, which in this one Islamic, Palestinian organizations, Hamas, Islamic, jihad, were the leading powers leading this whole process, that was by far always much more violent than the 1st Intifada in every possible aspect.
Avi Melamed: And the impact of that was that once again, in a way similar to 1935.
Avi Melamed: It kind of caused a setback for Palestinian independence. It resulted in a speed, a rapid collapse of the economy and boost Palestinian split within the sides that is going to result in in 2,007, the formal split when
Avi Melamed: Hamas is actually crushing the rule of Palestinian authority in Gaza strip and actually turning Gaza strip to a sort of like mini, emirate an Islamic emirate, massively supported by the Iranian regime, and since 2,007 we have been witnessing this inner Palestinian split.
Avi Melamed: resulting in all the attempts of different players to reconcile the parts, all those attempts basically failed.
Avi Melamed: and from there the road led actually to the most recent, of course, development, which is, of course, October 7, th Hamas attack on Israel on October 7, and the war following that.
Avi Melamed: So with this point. When we reach to this point of time in our presentation, let us welcome our guest. Speaker, guest, educator, Mr. Muhammad Najib, shortly introducing Mr. Najib Mohammad Najib is a Palestinian defense correspondent, security journalist and analyst from Ramallah in the West Bank.
Avi Melamed: For 30, 36 years he has reported on developments in the Middle East, working for leading newspapers, including Jane's Information Group.
Avi Melamed: his writing credits, including the book, Global Security and Intelligence, published by previous Security International as well as the mid 2,007 publication entry point to Palestinian security Sector reform by the Geneva Center for Democratic control of armed forces.
Avi Melamed: a speaker at numerous public diplomacy events, and a participant in several security conferences.
Avi Melamed: Since joining Jane's Information Group in April 2,001 contributed to several of Jane's publications covering defense, intelligence, strategic affairs, Islamic groups, counterterrorism, country risk and organized crime holds a professional degree in written journalism from University and BA. In English literature, from Al-quds. University.
Avi Melamed: proficient in 4 languages, Arabic, English, French, and Hebrew, elected to the Foreign Press Association Board in 2,014, and have been re-elected to that position for the first.st For the 1st past
Avi Melamed: 10 years, Mr. Najib, welcome to our session. We are very honored to have you with us.
Mohammed Najib: Thank you, Abby, and good afternoon to all the dear investment guests.
Avi Melamed: So, Mr. Najib, I would like to start with a question referring to some narrative which is very central in the Palestinian ethos, and that is the narrative that is known by the name of the resistance or Al-mukawama.
Avi Melamed: and in the context of the inner Palestinian discussion there are 2 versions of that. If you could shortly explain to us what is Hamas version of the resistance? And what is the Fatah or Palestinian authority version of that term?
Mohammed Najib: Good question. Actually, Hamas and Fatah have different versions. Of what means resistance or muqa? As for Hamas, it views the resistance primarily through the lens of armed struggle.
Mohammed Najib: It wants military confrontation with Israel, including firing rockets, tunnel warfare, and to achieving the goal of liberating Palestine. But also Hamas. See the political agreement, or any political agreement and negotiation as a secondary goal, and offer all the time rejecting compromise that recognize Israel. So Hamas refused to recognize Israel
Mohammed Najib: see the negotiation as a second goal, and the primary goal for Hamas is the resistance which lead by its military wing that you mentioned for Zidil Kassam.
Mohammed Najib: which is active, and it launched 7 October attacks against Israel in 2,003, but for Fatah Fatah historically also engaged in armed struggle against Israel in the 19 sixties and the 19 eighties. But after the signature of Oslo agreement, Fatah shifted largely from the armed resistance to the non violent resistance to the resistance and
Mohammed Najib: promote the State building, the negotiation, the international legal avenues. And also they thought that through negotiations with Israel, through peace talks, can build the Palestinian State and get the self administration for the Palestinians and the two-state solution, also that the Palestinian authority and Fatah adopted. So
Mohammed Najib: it engaged international institutions and the United Nations to push Israel to agree to the two-state solution. And this is the way that the Abbas committed to, and right now the kind of resistance is a fundamental difference between the Fatih and Hamas, as the Palestinian authority reject any armed resistance.
Mohammed Najib: especially when Iran and Hezbollah use that to weak the Palestinian authority to engage the Palestinian authority in unnecessary war, to engage the Palestinian people in Gaza and Rusbank, in war with Israel, that weakened the Palestinian cause internationally.
Avi Melamed: Yes, and you mentioned here Iran and Hezbollah, and of course the the war in Gaza. And here is something very significant to try to address it again. In the context of these 2 versions. Different versions very quickly, very clearly. 2 different versions within the inner Palestinian discussion.
Avi Melamed: Hamas refused to to disarm itself.
Avi Melamed: And though recently there has been an Arab summit of Arab leaders that adopted what is known as the Egyptian proposal for the rehabilitation of Gaza.
Avi Melamed: There wasn't really a clear demand of Arab leaders from Hamas to disarm itself. They did some very verbal gymnastics in that regard. We all understand
Avi Melamed: that while Hamas is continued to keep its independent military capacity, the ability to move forward positively, actually does not exist. In fact, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas more than once actually made it very clear, he said. The situation where power weapon is held by other than the Government is not acceptable.
Avi Melamed: and including, of course, the whole issue of Hamas. So now you've got this situation where Hamas insists to continue to keep it weapons. But, on the other hand, it's clear that you can't really offer any progress as long as this is the situation. So how this situation that seems like to be an impasse, how can it be positively or effectively addressed.
Mohammed Najib: Yes, it's also another good question. Actually, Hamas strongly reject any call for disarmament of the movement, and said that the name of the movement called Hamas resistance movement. So it's like, if you disarm them, then there's no meaning for the existence of Hamas, but also they claim that those weapons are necessary for the Palestinian defense and deterrence against Israel and
Mohammed Najib: the recent Cairo Summit Emergency Summit. Hamas rejected all the
Mohammed Najib: scenarios and proposal to be disarmed, and they offered that they are ready to abandon ruling Gaza, the civil authorities, and allow the Palestinian authority to take that. But they said that this time they will not agree to be disarmed, and that's under Representative Abbas, who think that what's happened in 2,007, when Hamas conducted a military coup
Mohammed Najib: against the Palestinian authority, because they have strong and powerful military wingersam. So if Hamas maintains its rebons, it will form a challenge for any Palestinian authority presence in the Gaza strip. But also there are countries like Egypt and Qatar, that have leverage on Hamas. Maybe can bush Hamas for face disarmament, process in exchange of reconstruction and economic improvement.
Mohammed Najib: and also if they conducting a security reform, so maybe integrate some of Hamas militants in the Palestinian security forces under international supervision that could be help, and also, if Hamas politically gained some achievements and legitimacy in the Palestinian regime, in the Palestinian system.
Mohammed Najib: maybe gradually it will allow agree to any kind of disarmament, but now it's still difficult and still a struggle that Hamas rejected to be disarmed.
Avi Melamed: And so when we are talking about this challenge of like, you know, paramilitary forces like Hamas or Islamic jihad, or others that are keeping their own independent military might. Obviously we focused on Gaza Strip. But we should also focus on the situation in the west bank, because
Avi Melamed: in the last I would say, 2 years or so there has been this phenomenon of Palestinian militias emerging in different places like Nablus or Jenin. Some of them basically are affiliated with Hamas or Islamic jihad. Some of them are kind of like domestically organized, and so
Avi Melamed: so, and the Palestinian authority has been waving, and a military campaign in the last couple of months trying to crush those those militias? What is the update on that? On that aspect.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah. Actually, there is a rise of the Palestinian military groups in West Bank, mainly in northern west bank refugees, camps in Nablus, Jenin, Dulkarim, Tobas, Al-faria, and there are 3 categories of those groups, some who are aligned with fatah movement, such as Al-aqsa battery brigades, and who operate semi-independently, but also they are affiliated with Al-aqsa brigades with Fatah.
Mohammed Najib: but also there is the most dangerous. The Iran-backed militia groups like lions, Zenin and Janine battalion that operate engineering camp. So they receive financial and logistical supports from Iran and Hezbollah, and also they form a challenge for both Israel and the Palestinian authority, and also there is Hamas and Palestine, Islamic jihad who sells and the groups who are
Mohammed Najib: in West Bank, and also they cooperate between each other's about each other. So the efforts by the Belsea authority to undermine them when they become form a challenge when they try to prevent the Palestinian authority from enter to junior refugees, camp or other areas form a challenge, and the Belsian authorities surrounded or encircled the junior refugees camp for 4,
Mohammed Najib: 3 days, but they failed to operate and to uproot them, and to wish them to surrender. Then the Idf came and invaded the camp, and some of those militants arrested or killed or injured or escaped
Mohammed Najib: that area. So the situation are difficult, and is there any military operations, and those camps weaken the Palestinian authority or created a vacuum that the Palestinian authority cannot operate there, because it's embarrassment for the Palestinian authority to operate at the time when the Idf came at any time with no coordination with the Palestinian authority. So the Palestinians see that the Palestinian authority
Mohammed Najib: is cooperating with the Idf actually to coordinate. But it's not like publicly, it's secretly, but when they see them. Both of them operate at the same area at the same time that make it difficult for the authorities, especially through the social media and the media and in the ground and the bush to lose its ground. Popularity and support. Among the Abstinians, especially in north and West Bank.
Avi Melamed: So you kind of describing here a very challenging group, because, on the one hand, those militias are presenting challenge to the Palestinian authority, and Israel. As you mentioned accurately, they are also presenting a challenge to their immediate environment because they're operating from a massively populated Palestinian areas. As you mentioned before.
Mohammed Najib: Yes.
Avi Melamed: But, on the other hand, they're kind of like continue to be able to operate on the ground. Does it mean that they have a wide base of support of population, or not necessarily.
Mohammed Najib: It's a mix, because some have big families extended families, and they can go to stay at their family members not known for the others. So they change their tactics of operating. And
Mohammed Najib: you know, in very crowds, refugees, camps, and they are civilian, not militant. So it's not easy to recognize them unless you close to them, so they can hide their guns. They use different cars. They can stay one night here at their friend's house another night at their relative house, so it was difficult for the Palestinian authority to even to
Mohammed Najib: detect them and to arrest them, and when they go inside the refugees, camps, all the people there protect them because they created a situation that the Palestinian authority is their enemy, and of the refugees camp. So the people of the refugees. Camps don't allow the Palestinian authority to come inside refugees camps to arrest them, so they provide them with shelter and protection
Mohammed Najib: because they hate the Palestinian authority, not because they are loyal to them and see them are the greatest one, because sometimes also they blackmail the families and take money. They have to force businessmen to pay money for them. They
Mohammed Najib: take their cars or something. I hear a lot of complaints about that. They want to complain to the Governor of Geneva, but in general as doublec authority, not in a strong status. Abbas is A,
Mohammed Najib: and his Sims are seen as pro-israelis, and did nothing to for the Palestinians and weak President, and as well as the Palestinian authorities. So the people on the ground don't support that, because they support them in an alternative of supporting the Palestinian authority, which is, lose its popularity and legitimacy among the Palestinians, and not in Westland.
Avi Melamed: So if I'm looking currently and particularly deliberately focusing on the situation in the west bank from a Palestinian perspective, the picture that you are portraying is very disturbing, because you're basically portraying a picture that, on the one hand, the Palestinian authority is clearly
Avi Melamed: not popular. And you said, there is a lot of criticism, and it's very its ability to enforce sovereignty is very questionable. On the one hand, on the other hand, you see the continuation, maybe the increasing action of those militias
Avi Melamed: are we? Are we heading in the west bank to a situation where the Palestinian authority is going to crumble.
Mohammed Najib: There are many challenges for the Basian authority in the West Bank office in 17 years refused to do elections.
Mohammed Najib: use Israel executes not to allow the elections to be organized in East Jerusalem as an excuse. So here many Palestinians think that if Abbas didn't cancel the scheduled legislative and the residential elections in 2021. Then Hamas will not conduct the 7th of October, because they will go to the elections, and that will be fine with them, but because Abbas is trying to
Mohammed Najib: not to go to the elections, he will stick by the power and surround himself with corrupt officials and monopolize the political decision and the Belly authority also financially suffering, because since 2 and a half a year it pays only 70% of the salaries of its 170,000 public
Mohammed Najib: employees. So the people in the security who live in Southern Hebron or in Jenin, and come to the work in Ramallah every week, have to pay transportation and get little money, so that's not attractive for the officers to be committed to fight terrorism, to conduct the orders, and to do the work as well as teach.
Mohammed Najib: and school teachers and medicines. So financially, it suffers a lot, and we're houses of the Ministry of Health. We can't find medicine. If you want to go to there, they ask you to buy the medicine from a private pharmacy outside, so it suffers a lot financially. It suffers a lot, and the Arab countries, the European unions and others don't help the bush authority because they don't trust there.
Mohammed Najib: They want them to make political reforms before they go to Gaza. And to complete the question that you asked before why the Palestinian authority recently tried to activate itself and its forces to operate against the armed militias in northern west bank, because they promised if they
Mohammed Najib: take over or a heavy crackdown on the groups in West Bank, then they will be qualified to be deployed in Gaza. Then they said, Okay, there is a bigger price. So let's do the job now, and that's the strong motive that motivated them to do that, because for the past 3 years they did nothing against the groups they're raising and become a challenge, and they grow up
Mohammed Najib: and become strong while the Berussian authority did nothing. That's time. But now, when they promised to rule Gaza and to get the money for the reconstruction, they said, okay, we'll show our strength in the north and west bank and against those militant groups. Actually, there are a lot of challenge here. The Belsian authority is unbugular, and
Mohammed Najib: it have a lot of burdens, financial burdens, political and security. The Israeli armed forces operate in areas a day and night, and it's supposed to be under the Palestinian control. The settlers take over the area C and expand and confiscate lands and expand their settlements. The Palestinian authority did nothing to help the Palestinian people.
Mohammed Najib: so the service as a service provider, it failed as a political leader. Also it failed. It didn't get anything for them, and financially cannot respond to their concern. So yes, it's facing a real and strong challenge, and it might be collapsed, might be continue as half did the authority as it is right now.
Avi Melamed: So I want to kind of like. Look at this very, very pivotal moment, obviously in the story of the conflict, but not less, of course, in the context of the Palestinian nationalism.
Avi Melamed: Well, you know, discussion, and this is, of course, October 7.th
Avi Melamed: What is
Avi Melamed: what is the inner Palestinian discussion today. Post October 7.th How does Palestinian view this whole thing? What are the
Avi Melamed: major sentiments? And if there is 1 1 that is more dominate.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah.
Mohammed Najib: actually, until October 7.th There is a strong discussions here among Palestinian states. Look, Hamas, fire mortars, missiles, and fire ballon toward Israel.
Mohammed Najib: and Israel called the Qatari ambassador Ahmadi, and sent 30 million dollar cash in a bag every month
Mohammed Najib: to Hamas. The Palestinian authority maintained a security coordination with Israel at best call for nonviolence, resistance to fight terrorism. But he get nothing. The Israeli Finance Minister deduct the money from the Belarusian authority, the tax money that collect on behalf of the Belarusian authority, and get nothing at the settlement expense in those banks.
Mohammed Najib: The Palestinians in the west bank understood, or some of them said we should understood
Mohammed Najib: that Israel sent us a message. It just respect, who use force against them, not who use peaceful means, like Abbas, that time, but after they saw what Hamas did in Gaza, and what's happened for the Palestinian, it becomes extremely threat for the Palestinians, because if you open the borders of Gaza. No one of Gaza will remain there right now. 110,000 Palestinians
Mohammed Najib: left Gaza through a Rafah crossing borders, but the situation are extremely difficult. It's not the best for living life in Gaza. So the situation in the west bank is very difficult, and the two-state solution become like an illusion, as Wcnc. That the Israelis reactivated and blow 900 checkpoints that this
Mohammed Najib: connect the West Bank cities from each other. If I want to travel to Nablus or Junin. I could stay at the checkpoint for 4 h some 6 h, so it's like become a miserable life for the Brazilians in the West bank.
Mohammed Najib: The authority did nothing to help the people here, and just did complain or issue statements in the media, or condemn that only, but also the people said that what's happened in 7th of October.
Mohammed Najib: It's not an issue that will help us. This means that using violence against Israel will not bring us any results. So many says that they have to review and to change their mentality about the armed resistance that it couldn't work with Israel, and it could destroy the Palestinian authority and the Palestinian cause, and the Palestinian image, because what Hamas did has
Mohammed Najib: weaken the Palestinian cause internationally and regionally, and Hamas become a threat even for the nearby countries like Egypt and Jordan. They see Hamas. I tell you that freed Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails during the recent swears, and who deported to Cairo still, until now in Cairo. Do you know why? Because no Arab countries want to receive them.
Mohammed Najib: even they are Hamas or non-hamas? Because the situation what's happened on 7th of October make all the Arab countries concerned from the Palestinians and from Hamas, so maybe there are some 60 or 70 Palestinian prisoners who freed from the Israeli jails recently, when they exchanged for Israeli soldiers or citizens hostages who were in Gaza.
Mohammed Najib: still in Cairo. No other country, even Qatar and Turkey, who backed Hamas. No one want to receive them.
Mohammed Najib: Algeria, Morocco, Mauritania they tried with any countries Hamas tried, and others tried, but no one want to receive them. So the situation become difficult, and it was the biggest and the most difficult challenge for the Palestinian 7 October. Now we touch the results locally and regionally and internationally, that no one wants to help us.
Avi Melamed: You you mentioned them?
Avi Melamed: the the picture that you are portraying is very gloomy, because when basically, what you are saying is that the 2 major Palestinian players into a large extent, failed to offer the people the Palestinians
Avi Melamed: a constructive path ahead, which is, which is, of course, very tragic and very frustrating.
Avi Melamed: You mentioned before some interesting figure. You said that about 110,000 people from Gaza left Gaza following October 7, th through the Rafah Crossing.
Avi Melamed: and I want to associate that figure that you mentioned with some President Trump's statement. Vis-a-vis Gaza.
Avi Melamed: as you may recall a couple of weeks ago President Trump made a statement actually talking about making Gaza a Riviera. And actually the United States will take control over Gaza Strip. And one of the things that that statement generated was kind of like sort of like. It's still the part in the context of the Arab discussion.
Avi Melamed: And actually it has, among other things, touched the the nerve of what is known as Sumud.
Avi Melamed: Could you? Could you explain shortly what Sumud is, and and why is it kind of like generating this inner tension within the Palestinian discussion.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah, Samud means in English state vastness. So the Palestinians adopt that since a long time, but about trump call for the displacement of B. Palestinians, 2.3 million Palestinians from Gaza.
Mohammed Najib: It's like the Palestinians recalled 1948 when they displaced from their origin areas inside Israel, which is Israel today. So they said, that was temporary, and 11 refugees camps under the Onurawa, and they were waiting for the right of Returnee to go back to Israel.
Mohammed Najib: But after those years 75 years, I think, or 70? Yeah, 77 years. They didn't have any chance or hope to go back. So they found. It is another catastrophe to move, displaced from Gaza to another area in the world, and the Palestinian recognized those, especially the refugees who went to Lebanon.
Mohammed Najib: Syria and Jordan, they thought, it is temporary. They will go back, but now, after those more than 7 decades, they stay there forever. No one of them from Lebanon or Syria. Refugees, camps, or Jordan will come back to Israel or to their own home. So that was for the bar scene as a problem for that, but also Samud means like to
Mohammed Najib: refuse to be displaced from their areas, to lose the right of self-determination, and historically claims by the Palestinians of right of Returnee. So they want to stay there, despite all the destruction and the miserable life, shortage of water, electricity, medicines, and all kinds of challenge, no education nothing.
Mohammed Najib: but they don't want to live there because their fathers and grandfathers, many grandfathers told them the story when they believe the lies that they have to leave their villages temporary for a few weeks and come back, and they went to the west bank to Gaza. They went to Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and right now. No one of them allowed to go back to their homes.
Avi Melamed: I see. Thank you. I want to kind of like expand our outlook and look regional. You mentioned earlier in our conversation. More than once you mentioned the role of regional players, 2 major regional players, Nanara.
Avi Melamed: One is Iran and one is Turkey.
Avi Melamed: Could you elaborate a little bit more about the role of both Iran and Turkey in the context of the inner Palestinian politics, the way that it impacts the trajectory of the Palestinians.
Mohammed Najib: Yes, I think Iran is a big challenge for the Palestinians, because they are using the Palestinian cause to achieve influence.
Mohammed Najib: Many here believe that Iran don't like us. They use us, they want to use us. The army groups the Palestinian cause, but internally they don't believe in the Palestinian cause as their own cause, so they are a Nationalist and care about us. Iran for a long time supported both Hamas and the Islamic jihad, provided them with weapons, funding military training in Iran.
Mohammed Najib: and after 2,007, when Hamas conducted the military subjugation in Gaza, Iran become the main Hamas military backer, especially in training them about missiles production. Also they are expected to increase their influence, and they try to support Hamas before 7 October and after the 7th of October. By the way.
Mohammed Najib: I filed a story for James about Hamas and Iran, and I found that Sinwar, when he conducted 7 October, he was hoped that Iran will join the battle against Israel, and they betrayed him. They didn't do that.
Mohammed Najib: and it's clear now even the Israelishing confiscated documents confirmed that, and Hamas leaders in closed door, says that they betrayed, and they were disappointed that Iran didn't support them in the battle against Israel. But Iran told them we asked Sinwar to distract Israel, to keep Israel busy by firing mortars, missiles sometimes, not to involve Iran
Mohammed Najib: in original war that will lose its prisons and the acts of resistance, and they said that we promise in war to help him in the project of liberation. But after we accomplish the nuclear program, not before.
Mohammed Najib: So Iran is a big challenge for the Palestinians, and they use the Palestinians issue. And it's not less a challenge than the Israeli occupation and the Israeli problem with the Palestinians. So it's 1 of the countries that incited Hamas for a long time not to reconcile with Fatah, and to end the division between West Bank and
Mohammed Najib: Gaza. Also they support the Islamic jihad movement to conduct attacks and to do everything and to make things difficult. So also they were backing Hezbollah and Hezbollah also recruited Palestinians. So the whole system worked together in the region
Mohammed Najib: to use the Palestinians and the Barsinian cause politically, and they claim that this is to help the Palestinians, but the Palestinians don't see that, especially after 7 October.
Avi Melamed: The Palestinians didn't see that, or.
Mohammed Najib: The more clear or more convinced that Iran is using them
Mohammed Najib: and using their cause for its influence, not because they want really to help the Palestinians.
Avi Melamed: So in course of time the Palestinian.
Mohammed Najib: I tell you, in Gaza I track this issue in Syria and in Lebanon, Iran constructed hospitals, medical clinics, schools in Gaza. Nothing by Iran except the missiles. Nothing.
Mohammed Najib: Show me anything that Iranians give to the Palestinians. No, nothing. Just the missiles and their weapons to do that issue against Israel, but no school, no medical clinic, no scholarship for someone to study, no any kind of contribution or donations to the Palestinians, or to help them in agriculture or industry in anything.
Mohammed Najib: but they did for Hezbollah. They did in Syria. They did in Iraq, they did everywhere in Yemen, but for the Belsians only. They just use them to kill themselves or to suicide, like the carrying gats against Israel on behalf of Iran, to serve the Iranian targets, and then the Belsians pay the price.
Avi Melamed: It, you know it leads to a very puzzling question before we turn to talk a little bit about Turkey. But before it, just one more thing in the context of Iran.
Avi Melamed: The Palestinians obviously understood way before October 7, th that they are being manipulated and used and abused by the Iranians, they understood it right. Obviously, they see that I know that there has been a lot of expressions before October 7th of Palestinians, who basically, including in Gaza, who said, We are being manipulated by the Iranians.
Avi Melamed: Why didn't it resulted in a change in the inner Palestinian discussion? Why, what is so powerful that still make Palestinian attracted to that
Avi Melamed: wasted relationship.
Mohammed Najib: The Iranians call the young Palestinians in Northwest Bank, who was not in the school, and they provide them with a huge amount of money, and they buy guns, and they use it against Israelis, and they want to protect their money and the benefits that made through Iran from any of the authorities. So that's the issue. But in Gaza they supported Hamas and Islamic
Mohammed Najib: jihad, and also I hear that the popular front for the liberation of Palestine, that was backed by Syria in the past
Mohammed Najib: have no financial and no money financial support. So somehow Iranians also support them. So Iran is a tab of money to give everyone the Houthis, the Hamas, anyone who is ready to operate or to do anything for Iran. They do it. Even they try to recruit Israelis to spy against Israel for Iran and give them money, and
Mohammed Najib: so they try to destabilize the region and to disturb Israel in every possible way, not to fight Israel directly, Iran fighting Israel through proxies. And that's also an important doctrine, because Iran didn't plan to clash directly with Israel.
Mohammed Najib: We saw they sent some missiles, but that was because they want to save their faces after what's happened to Haniyah in Tehran. But mainly Iran planned for long years and for a long time, and its strategic plan is to fight Israel through proxies, throw Hezbollah in the north, through the militias, in Syria, in Iraq, the Houthis, in Yemen.
Mohammed Najib: Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic jihad, and this is why the Palestinians saw that they are just used by Iran as the others, not to serve the Palestinian cause, but to serve the Iranian issue.
Avi Melamed: And now it kind of like makes me turn almost naturally to another player that we mentioned before Turkey, and particularly Erdogan, the Turkish President, what
Avi Melamed: what has been the impact of Erdogan, the Turkish foreign policy in the context of the Palestinian discussions and political trajectory.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah, Turkey, since a long time, backing and supporting Hamas politically, but and at the same time it was enjoys good ties with Israel. At the same time, but under Recep Tayyip, erdogan, Turkey become a hub for Hamas leaders in exile, so many of them, like Salah, Auri, and others, went and live in Turkey, and they have safe shelter that
Mohammed Najib: Mossad couldn't operate in Turkey, so they feel they are safe, and they are close to Iran. So Turkey wants to use them, and also as Muslims Brotherhood Country, now by Hamas, Oslo, Muslim, also Muslims brotherhood, so they support each other. They benefit from the Turkish support for that.
Mohammed Najib: But I read that the Turkish blamed Hamas for 7 October, and told them that was a mad decision, uncalculated decision, and will lead the region for instability, and they didn't calculate the Israeli reaction to that. So it's not like full support of Hamas to do whatever they want to
Mohammed Najib: do. But at the same time they support them diplomatically and politically, but they will not support them militarily. So there's no more training basis for Hamas in Turkey. And also it was a request by Israel and the United States not to allow Hamas to have a military bases in Turkey, and they just have a political presence in Turkey.
Avi Melamed: And so it's kind of like lead me to. Towards the end of our discussion, which, of course, we could continue the discussion for the next couple of hours. But we want to leave time for questions of the fellows.
Avi Melamed: It seems like today. Given the weakening of Iran, you mentioned the axis of resistance, an issue that we'll talk about in different session. It seems like as today there is larger place for major Arab players. Egypt, Saudi, Arabia, United Arab emirates to
Avi Melamed: to be much more proactively involved in the shaping of the trajectory. Do you see that as something that is going to take place? And if so, what do you think would be the trajectory.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah, actually, during the past years, and mainly also after the 7th of October, both Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, Arabia, and Arab Emirates become more engaged in the Palestinian affairs. The Palestinian issue, for example, Saudi, Arabia, and Jordan backed President Abbas as the legitimate leader.
Mohammed Najib: and they want him to conduct the political reforms within the Palestinian authority and security to be capable to take over Gaza. On the second day after the end of the war the United Arab emirates bagged Mohammed Dahlan, who is an omnient for bas. But recently in the Arab summit
Mohammed Najib: the Saudis, the Emirates, and the Egyptians, as well as the Jordanians, pressure, Abbas, to reconcile with Fatih opponents Muhammad Dahlan and Nasr Qudwer, and to return them to Fatah, and they told him, you alone. We can't rule Gaza. You need those to be supportive of you. And Abbas accepted that, and
Mohammed Najib: 2 days ago he declared that on the 21st of April he's going to convene the Fatah Revisionary Council to appoint
Mohammed Najib: deputy of the President of the Blo. So this will happen for the 1st time, and it came as a result of Arab pressure on Abbas to that, because for a long time he was rejecting and refusing to do that. So yes, they want stability here, and also they are consent. From Hamas and the Muslim brotherhood.
Mohammed Najib: Egypt, Arab Emirates, and Jordan will have also a dozen 1,000 Palestinians who live in Jordan. So they were sympathized with the Palestinians in Gaza, so they want the stability of the Palestinian issue, and therefore they are intervened more than any time before, and even when King Abdullah went to meet Trump at the White House in the 10th of 11th or 12th of February.
Mohammed Najib: He also to speak about the Palestinian perspective, and what the Palestinians want, regard the issue of Gaza, and how they see the future after the stop of the war in Gaza. So yes, the Palestinians, now in a good coordination with Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, Arabia, and they are also mediate with the trump and the American administration. And recently Abbas said that clearly to Mohammed bin Salman.
Mohammed Najib: or the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, that told him, you are a guardian of the Barcian cause. So you have to take care of that, and he means that he can convoy the Palestinian message to trump and persuade him to accept the version or the perspective more than what Abbas himself can do. It.
Avi Melamed: Yes. Well, I mean to conclude this part of the discussion. I would kind of like take myself the liberty to make the following observation. You know we are now 100 years since the days of what we started with talking about Great Syria. And here is my observation when I'm looking at the whole story of the Palestinian through this period of time, I think it's something very interesting, and to a large extent tragic.
Avi Melamed: I think that
Avi Melamed: the Palestinians definitely can mark the creation of an ethos of a national ethos and the narratives that are part a significant part of any national ethos. I don't think there can be any debate about it. At the same time, when I look at the story of Palestinian politics
Avi Melamed: and the way it has been interwoven in the whole story of the Middle East politics. And when we look at the situation today, post October 7, th particularly, the inevitable conclusion is that, unfortunately, in kind of like very distorted way. Palestinians, though they build this ethos and narratives, and pay and sacrifice for that.
Avi Melamed: their leadership actually constantly failed to translate it into a substantial, productive, and constructive.
Avi Melamed: A trajectory which I think to a large extent, is a very, is a very tragic aspect.
Avi Melamed: At this point. I would like to open our session to the questions of the fellows.
Avi Melamed: Ben.
Ben Monroe: Hello, Muhammad, thank you for being here today and speaking with us.
Ben Monroe: I'm curious. Given the the PA and Hamas being criticized to protect Palestinian civilians.
Ben Monroe: Do you think Israel has a moral obligation to ensure innocent Palestinian civilian safety? And if so, to what extent.
Mohammed Najib: Yes, I think Israel armed forces, the Idf. And their operations, they supposed, and they confirmed several times that they have to avoid, or any causalities among civilians, among population Gaza, and it happened during the military operations in Gaza mainly, and sometimes in those banks, that some civilians
Mohammed Najib: become a target or become victims of those operations, and the Brazilians see that as a collective punishment.
Mohammed Najib: but the Idf. Has provided with accurate and precise advanced technology, and weapons can conduct attacks against the targeted Hamas, militants, or Islamic jihad. Whoever but now set to target or to injure
Mohammed Najib: or kill civilians, children, women, old men, and others, and sometimes also they target journalists and journalists were in a clear cars with brace signs and uniforms, and they were known there. But it was a difficult situation in Gaza, actually. And
Mohammed Najib: I tell you, I just one example of what's happened before yesterday.
Mohammed Najib: yesterday or before yesterday. The Idf killed 9 Varalsinians in Beitlahia, and it was at the time of Ramadan dinner. It's like the sunset here.
Mohammed Najib: and I saw that Hamas condemned the attack, and the Idf. Said they were about to plant bombs there, and I asked, what's happened? Why, that's because I saw the names. They are journalists and the spokesperson of society. So I learned, I learned that
Mohammed Najib: there is a British, a charitable society called Al Khair, the charity that donated
Mohammed Najib: a long big table of a Ramadan dinner, for, like 300 Palestinians in Beit Lahiyah north in Gaza.
Mohammed Najib: and to recruit more money, and to show their finance that they make this a big meal.
Mohammed Najib: they asked them to fly a drone.
Mohammed Najib: to take photos for the big meal with the tables and the people when they have dinner from the sky. But in that area where is close to the Idf troops. They are forbidden to fly any drone, because the Idf consider this a threat to them. It might attack the idf or take photos for them to for attacks
Mohammed Najib: and the Idf targeting those groups. They thought that they are planning some attacks, but actually they were a mistake
Mohammed Najib: by the community, the society, the Charitable Society, that asked them to do that, and also mistake by the journalist who accepted to fly the drone in that area just for a silly reason just to take a photo for a big meal to recruit more money and more finance. So sometimes it happens a misunderstanding, and
Mohammed Najib: unfortunately, the casualties are civilians and unnecessary to be killed. For that reason the Idf misunderstood what's happening? And the society didn't expect that. And the journalists stupidly did that. So they paid a price which was unnecessary.
Mohammed Najib: But I think yes, it's a moral commitment to the Idf. To avoid civilians or those who are not involved
Mohammed Najib: in attacks against the Idf forces to be killed in the war. Despite the situation that they are fighting in vibulated areas, crowd people. Sometimes, maybe it's difficult. Sometimes it's possible, but surely they have to care about lives of civilians who are not involved in attacks against the Idf.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Mohammed. Miles.
Miles Isaacs: Hi Mohammed. Thank you.
Miles Isaacs: Very much. My question is very sure. I just wanted to know and understand the process of what happens
Miles Isaacs: when
Miles Isaacs: Abbas is seat is gone, when he's no longer in office, maybe when he dies. I know he's been in poor health recently, or within the last few years he
Miles Isaacs: had prostate cancer, recovered from prostate cancer, had, I think, 2 catheters. But what happens when he dies? Who replaces him? Is that a victory for Hamas.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah, this is the 1 million dollars question. Actually, all the people here, Israelis, Jordanians, Palestinians, international, want to know the answer for these questions, and we did a lot of studies and discussions about that. It was unclear.
Mohammed Najib: What's going to happen? That's time, because because it's different. When Yasser Arafat dies or passed away in 2,004. The head of the Palestinian Parliament, according to the law, replaced him for 60 days until they organized the Presidential elections and basket office, but
Mohammed Najib: Abbas, after Hamas military subjugation in Gaza, in 2,007 he had dismantled the Blc Palestinian Legislative Council, and there is no legal or legitimate body to replace him. But recently he tried to integrate the Blc in the Palestinian National Council, which is the Parliament of the Blo, and he said also the same one who was the
Mohammed Najib: a temporary president is now the head of that, but they are under Arab pressures
Mohammed Najib: that Abbas called for convening of the Fatah City Council on 21st of April
Mohammed Najib: to name a deputy for him, and this is for the 1st time it's going to happen, and if he has a deputy we don't know who he's going to be. Maybe San Sheikh, as everyone in the deck
Mohammed Najib: and speculated, speculate, and then will be known that who is going to replace him, but also it will be for temporary time until they organize elections. I think the situation on the ground is difficult to organize elections for many reasons. Like the situation in Gaza.
Mohammed Najib: it's terrible how they can organize elections among those people and also in East Jerusalem. Israel who didn't allow the Palestinians to organize elections for, and 350,000 Palestinians in East Jerusalem have to vote, so Israel will not allow that. And also, if they organize it in the West bank, the Palestinian authority and Fatah may be enough to win
Mohammed Najib: the elections, so any other alternative, maybe Hamas or others can win the elections, and it will engage the Palestinians in other dilemma more than before.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Bahij.
Bahij S.: My question is in regards to the Palestinian cause and the future, especially for the younger generation. Do you feel that they're more inclined, perhaps to follow the
Bahij S.: footsteps of Hamas or the Palestinian authority? Or is there like an alternate option that you believe exists for them?
Mohammed Najib: I hope I understood your question clearly. But
Mohammed Najib: here a study show that Palestinians between 18 and 30 years are concerned about the future.
Mohammed Najib: and they think they have no hope about the future. So this is very dangerous, because in this option, this situation they have 2 options, either to immigrate, and to leave the country, or maybe to become more radical.
Mohammed Najib: But the Brazilian authority actually does nothing to absorb those, even also the new graduates. In the past. They have worked to work in Israel 200
Mohammed Najib: 1,000 Palestinians who are working in Israel. They have something to do in life, and also to get money to make money, but now it's closed and no jobs in the policy authority, no jobs in the private sector here. If there are jobs they don't have. They don't be a good salary. So yes, they are 10,000 students, graduates from universities every year, but have no job.
Mohammed Najib: so no work. So the future for young generation is ambiguous, and the concerns to the people and observers of.
Mohammed Najib: And what's happening in this area.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. I think that if I'm not correct if I'm not wrong. The question was something like along the line given to this very challenging situation that you described Mohammed. Do we witness today? If I understood correctly, the emergence of a new young leadership that maybe is, is not, is not in a situation where they say it's either migrating or becoming radicalized. But something else.
Mohammed Najib: Yes, young Fatah leaders and other leaders try to find a different solution. For example.
Mohammed Najib: many believe that the two-state solution is become an illusion. No way they look at the west bank, and how this limit expanded, and how the right wing government don't get that. So they think that about one state solution
Mohammed Najib: that the Palestinians and the Israelis can be in one state.
Mohammed Najib: So this is one of the young leaders. Think about it to change that. And also they think that the armed resistance
Mohammed Najib: is not didn't work for the past times with the Palestinians, so they think that they can fund the political or legal issues to work with Israel, and also to increase the lobby inside the United States, because the Palestinians just speak the current leadership, speak to their friends, not to whom should they speak?
Mohammed Najib: They speak to the left wing in Israel, who support the Palestinians more than the Palestinians support themselves, but they never try to approach the right wing. Israeli right wing. So right now, so I can say that the young generation, who are more intellectual and educated and gradual of good universities
Mohammed Najib: have different logistic, logical.
Mohammed Najib: and realistic perspective about how to solve the issue and give you an example. Like Abbas said, there is no talk since 2014, right now about Jerusalem, about the right of refugees and about the borders. But here the angry leadership, because I said, Okay.
Mohammed Najib: Abbas, cannot now bring the refugees back to their homes, or get the Jerusalem or the borders issue solved with Israel, and have a Palestinian state. But that doesn't even to negotiate about making the life of the Palestinians easy
Mohammed Najib: across the cheekbones to find work, to create, to establish factories here, to create jobs for the Palsinians. So yes, they have different perspectives, and also they believe in engaging many palsinians in high tech industry and in online trade and in other issues to create alternatives which the old
Mohammed Najib: guards have nothing to do. Regard this issue.
Avi Melamed: Thank you, Miranda.
Miranda: Hi, thank you so much for that talk. My question concerns more of the narrative of the war in the West. There are a lot of pro-palestinian protests and activists going on in America. My current university.
Miranda: we have a group of graduate students who say that they are in discussion with a group of graduate intellectuals in Palestine in terms of furthering a certain narrative, or trying to make their
Miranda: situation more trying to have more discussion about it on the university level. So my question is, what is the connection between people on the ground in Palestine people who are living and experiencing the war? And then the pro-palestinian activists or protesters in the West. Is there any disconnection with the narrative? Are they in a lot of contact? Is there like any contradiction? So I'm just very curious about that.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah. I followed the support, sympathy, and support for Palestinians in the Western United States and Europe, and everywhere, and as I understand, they are sympathized with the civilians in Gaza, not with Hamas leadership
Mohammed Najib: or with Abbas leadership. So if I am correct about that point, so I think here the Palestinian authority failed to use that support and sympathy in the right way. And, for example, I told that I asked the mystery of foreign affairs, and Ramallah here who are a good friend of mine, I told him. Okay, I saw support for Palestinian, Spain, and Europe and other countries. Why, you didn't ask them
Mohammed Najib: if they support us that way, they can transfer this support into real actions. For example, free the personas from having visa, or have visa on arrival or online.
Mohammed Najib: but they did nothing. So justice in the media, it's nothing there here. But also, I know here in the community there are some activists, and some of them are visiting here in the west bank in those days. I spoke to them yesterday. They are based in Geneva and in Europe, other areas. So they work hard with those supporters there, and they want to work for like
Mohammed Najib: to call to bush for ending the Israeli incubation, allowing the Palestinians to have their state and end the conflict, and let Israel and the Palestinians live in peace and respect, and no one form a threat to each other. So this is what they are calling for.
Mohammed Najib: but I understand that the support is for sympathy. They saw what's happening in Gaza, the children, the women, the old men who've been killed, or have suffered, of starvation and shortage, of medical care, and killed and injured and suffered a lot of because of the war. So they sympathize with them, and they
Mohammed Najib: called, this is the right time to end the Palestinian conflict, and the sufferance.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Carl.
Carl J. Chiappa: 1st of all. Thank you very much, Mr. Najib, for all of your comments. I'd like to follow up on the question that Mahesh asked you.
Carl J. Chiappa: One of the things that excuse me
Carl J. Chiappa: puzzles people in the United States, I think with respect to Gaza is how much
Carl J. Chiappa: support there really is among the Gazans for Hamas. You know we see polls that show very high support, but I always wonder how accurate
Carl J. Chiappa: holes like that are when you're under the kind of threats that Hamas is capable of offering and enforcing. Do you have a sense of, let's say, as a general proposition among
Carl J. Chiappa: the Gazans. Broadly speaking, how much support Hamas really has.
Mohammed Najib: Okay? Good question. Actually, I talked to Barestinas in Gaza
Mohammed Najib: from time to time, and as far as I know.
Mohammed Najib: that the abolitions in Gaza don't support Hamas. After what's happened, they support the Abolition authority, but in the west bank they support Hamas more than supporting the Belsian authority
Mohammed Najib: in Gaza they saw how the heavy price they paid and the illegal treatment against them. For example, when the assistance arrives, the Hamas take over the military assistance and give it to its people, affiliated people with them, not to everyone there
Mohammed Najib: of the 2 million. So they feel it's an injustice against them, but also about supporting. You know that Barestina suffered a lot because of the Israelis policies.
Mohammed Najib: So
Mohammed Najib: if Israel target anyone, even me who I'm not affiliated with any political party, I find some Berachinis will be sympathized with me because just Israel is targeting me, not Jordan or Egypt.
Mohammed Najib: and if I also, or anyone, attack Israel.
Mohammed Najib: even Saddam Hussein, who did in 1991 when he fired rockets, which was useless.
Mohammed Najib: They were happy with that, because they found someone who can threat Israel and take revenge for them. But this is temporary. It's not permanent support. It's not for long standing support for that, because people are mostly emotional, and about the surveys I followed. Also. It was clear that Khalil Shikaki, who organized, conducted.
Mohammed Najib: surveying Gaza. It was taken by Hamas guys there and give the results in that way, and it was a big scandal after they discovered that they were fake the results, and people answered the question in the way that the Hamas won there
Mohammed Najib: and then. It was a fake issue. But, as I tell you, in Gaza they support the Palestinian authority more than they support Hamas in the West Bank. They support Hamas more than they support the Palestinian authority, and it is a temporary. It's not like for a long time, because
Mohammed Najib: they feel sympathy because they are targeted by Israel, and also they are challenging Israel here. When I call someone, I tell him, how are you, Leader? And once I called one who's working for Marwan Barruti office and told him how doing, leader. He told me. No leaders in the West Bank leaders only are in Gaza.
Mohammed Najib: This is how they see things in issue because of what's happened, because they see the Palestinian authority, and Abbas did nothing to help their people. And, by the way leaders means not necessarily to use armed struggle, but also to use political means or any achievement. But when you don't have political achievement, financial or economic achievements or any achievements on the ground. Then they say they are not a leader.
Carl J. Chiappa: Thank you very much. Let me just ask one quick follow up question. If you put it all together, then
Carl J. Chiappa: and there were a a an election.
Carl J. Chiappa: you know, organized by the PA and and internationally approved. And Israeli approved. Do you have a sense of whether
Carl J. Chiappa: the PA or Hamas would win.
Mohammed Najib: Putting it all together.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah, actually, I was in some close discussions with the who are care about what's going on. Actually, here.
Mohammed Najib: they talk about a new leadership.
Mohammed Najib: The current Palestinian leadership cannot lead the Palestinians for the future, and also Hamas the same that did in Gaza.
Mohammed Najib: So they talk about. There is necessity to replace the current leaderships, either in Hamas as well as in the Russian authority.
Mohammed Najib: So situation is not that easy? And those who cause. The problem cannot solve it.
Mohammed Najib: and the young generation have different views about how they can do the job and how they can do the things on the ground and to help their people and response to their challenge. But the old Guards, you know, Abbas is almost 90 years old, and also the Fatah Central Committees. Abbas Zaki is 91 years old.
Mohammed Najib: It's like the former Ussr, the former Soviet Union. When someone dies they bring someone who is 86 to replace him. And here what's going? And they said, the young generation cannot do the job. They don't have the experience. They don't have the vision. We have the experience. We are the historical leader. Yesterday I read a post on the Facebook by one of the pioneers, says.
Mohammed Najib: we don't want historical leaders who never win a battle. We want just leaders who can respond to the needs of the daily needs of the Palestinian people to have their medicine, to have their food on table to send their sons to the schools to live in dignity. So yes, there are a lot of discussions about the borders, perspectives, how we can go forward in the
Mohammed Najib: challenge that we around and also the nearby countries and the other countries also see that there's a need for change, a real change, not just a symbolic or cosmetic change.
Carl J. Chiappa: Thank you very much.
Avi Melamed: Thank you for that. And actually, last question to conclude the session, Diane, just for your knowledge, Diane is one of the Itme Board members. Diane, please.
Diane: Yeah, Hello, Mr. Thank you for being here.
Diane: How do you think?
Diane: The Palestinians and our neighboring Arab countries could get over the stigma of working with Israelis.
Diane: like, I feel like there's a lot of negativity of the idea of even working with Israel that
Diane: the idea of of trying to partner with them to come to a solution, isn't
Diane: it? Is almost like a failure
Diane: in their in their perspective. I mean, I mean, am I way off or.
Mohammed Najib: You mean normalization between Israel and nearby Arab countries.
Diane: Yeah, and working with them. Is there a negative feeling?
Diane: Among the Arab community among the Palestinians about
Diane: saying, yes, we want to work with them. They're afraid to say that because there's so much.
Diane: you know, negative stigma, negative feeling that they don't want to be thought of
Diane: like. So the courage to say, we need to work with Israel. We need to partner more
Diane: is held back.
Mohammed Najib: Yeah.
Mohammed Najib: 1st of all, the Arabs adopted the Arab beast initiative of Saudi Arabia in 2,001, which says that if Israel recognized the right of the Palestinian people, then the Arab and Islamic countries will normalize their relationship with Israel.
Mohammed Najib: Actually, the Palestinians here says that our problem with Israel is only the occupation, nothing else. We are not against the Jews as a religion, but against the occupation. So I think if the Israelis, in their occupation of the Palestinians and give them their state.
Mohammed Najib: Then there is no problem exit, and can live and cooperate closely, and the Palestinians were concerned that
Mohammed Najib: 1st they have to solve and overcome the Palestinian Israeli conflict and get their rights. Then the Arab countries can jump and normalize their relationship with Israel.
Mohammed Najib: But what's happened by emirates and angry the Palestinians, and as well as Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco. They said, if they do that they jump over that, then the Palestinians issue will be weakened, and that's what they feel. They weaken. But now the Palestinian authority use Egypt and Jordan to mediate with the Israelis, with the American administration. They depend on them more
Mohammed Najib: to help them because they are helpless, they can't help themselves. The Abbas weak leadership. So the Egyptians are playing a constructive role in Parish Hamas to accept the deal with Israel and Gaza, to stop the war, to allow the Palestinian authority to come back. And now, by the way, at traffic across the border. There are some
Mohammed Najib: representatives of the Palestinian authority who are there to stamp the passports of Palestinians who leave Gaza, and that's happened since the ceasefire that reached between Israel and Hamas, Israel, Qatar, Egypt, and the United States. So they are trying to help the Palestinian authority, because the Palestinian stability contribute to their national security. The Egyptians
Mohammed Najib: are concerned about what's happening in Gaza, and they pay price for that. The Jordanians also will have a huge majority of Palestinians leave their population, so they want to come as soon as possible more than the Palestinians to end to this conflict, and to have stabilization here to prevent any instability in their countries.
Avi Melamed: Thank you so much. We are reaching to the end of this session. Once again I want to thank Mr. Najib for his commentary, for his significant insights and perspectives from inside, talking about the very complex and challenging inner Palestinian story. I want to thank you for your participation, and I'm looking forward to our next session, and until then
Avi Melamed: have a good week. Take care and be well.
Mohammed Najib: Thank you.
Avi Melamed: Bye, bye.
Ben Monroe: Thank you all. Thank you.
Miles Isaacs: You too.
Mohammed Najib: Good luck!