Avi Melamed: Okay, Shalom. Good afternoon. We are today in somewhat more partial participation. Let me see if
Avi Melamed: you could see the screen just a moment.
Avi Melamed: You? Good.
Avi Melamed: Not yet.
Avi Melamed: Okay, yeah, yeah.
Avi Melamed: yeah, you're not. It's not full screen.
Avi Melamed: It's not full screen.
Avi Melamed: But you should tell, is it full screen now went to it too big.
Avi Melamed: Click up here, dude.
Avi Melamed: stop! Share!
Avi Melamed: Did you do that? Or that before or this? What did you do? No, we didn't do that. We did. We did that
Avi Melamed: again. I don't know what to say. If it's oh, there it is!
Avi Melamed: Let's see if that one
Avi Melamed: and then, now it's moving. No, it's moving. Okay.
Avi Melamed: okay, good afternoon. And itme fellows, it's always very happy to be with you. Today we have some partial participation. People had to
Avi Melamed: fly to and from back.
Avi Melamed: Just the same.
Avi Melamed: though we are conflicting smaller participation. I will conduct this session as planned, because I want to keep, of course.
Avi Melamed: this timetable of the whole programs. We cannot. We don't really have much time to play with that. So we will do that today?
Avi Melamed: actually, I'm the guest educator since we are going to talk today about Israel path, identity and direction.
Avi Melamed: I would say that this session
Avi Melamed: is not focusing on, I would say
Avi Melamed: the things that are more daily in the media discussion, meaning security in politics, in, on the, on the everyday level. But what I will try to do today is to to provide some, you know. Look
Avi Melamed: at what I would say is the major components that kind of like
Avi Melamed: assembled Israeli society and Israeli politics and Israeli identity.
Avi Melamed: As as of as of today.
Avi Melamed: As you probably know, there is an ongoing, and, I would say, deepening crisis in Israel. It started a
Avi Melamed: already before October 7. The background for that was, among other things, the whole issue of the judicial reform that the Government
Avi Melamed: is is, is promoting, or wants to promote and
Avi Melamed: and then, of course, other things that have been igniting a growing, deepening
Avi Melamed: discontent and protest in Israel, particularly around the issue of legislative laws that has been viewed as laws that are kind of like, you know, aims to kosher. So to speaking, criminal activities.
Avi Melamed: and the power struggle actually inflicted and stretched beyond that and and reached to the point. There was sort of like collision between the Government and the Israeli Supreme Court, ending up at least up until now with the fact that the Israeli Supreme Court was applying its power and authority
Avi Melamed: to prevent or to disqualify those specific laws that were determined as illegal
Avi Melamed: by by the Supreme Court. However, the crisis depends.
Avi Melamed: And obviously intensified. Following October 7. I'm sure that you're quite familiar with the
Avi Melamed: that aspect of the situation in Israel.
Avi Melamed: However, as I said, I would like more today.
Avi Melamed: which I think is very much relevant in the end of the day to understand what we see in front of our eyes and what is being reported in the media. I would like today to focus on understanding the
Avi Melamed: and the components of identity
Avi Melamed: of Israeli society in the different camps, and a little bit understand a little bit more about where they stand?
Avi Melamed: And what do they represent? And trying also together, of course, to assess where things are heading to.
Avi Melamed: So right in front of you, you see, very general data regarding Israeli population. You could see the figures in front of you.
Avi Melamed: and I would like to 1st talk about very generally the assembling of the Israeli Parliament, the Knesset.
Avi Melamed: as of 2025. There are 120 seats in the Israeli Knesset, the Israeli Parliament. The Israeli system, as you probably know, is a multi political party system to the point. There has been a joke in Israel that every 2 people in a cat are assembling a party in Israel. But there are many parties in Israel political parties, and the meaning of that is that
Avi Melamed: assembling a government in Israel, always kind of like, called for the assembling of coalition
Avi Melamed: coalition that has 61 seats in the Parliament that guarantee the government stability.
Avi Melamed: The need for creating a coalition has been one of the major challenges within Israeli political system.
Avi Melamed: There has been during the years all kind of attempts or suggestions about
Avi Melamed: addressing that very challenging situation, particularly, for example, if you compare it to the States where you have 2 parties.
Avi Melamed: however, the the attempts, either by raising the bar of minimum vote to enable or to to that, gives party a mandate.
Avi Melamed: Oh, and changing the system for for originally based voting to an individual based voting, dividing, actually vote between the voting for the position of Prime Minister.
Avi Melamed: which is the highest executive position in Israel and and political parties, all those attempts in the end of the day, kind of like, one way or another funnel back in the whole need to conduct the system, the way it has been always.
Avi Melamed: And there is a multi political parties in Israel, many different political parties that are competing over the votes of constituencies in Israel, and shortly, of course, we will dwell and understand a little bit better about those parties and their outlook.
Avi Melamed: Currently, you see in front of you the the distribution of seats within the Israeli Parliament. You see the Haredim, the Israeli, the ultra orthodox Jews in Israel, have total of 18 seats
Avi Melamed: in the camp of the Haredim there are 2, roughly speaking, 2 blocks. One is the Ashkenazi Haredim, that has 7 seats, and the other one is the Sepharradi Haredim. The rather known also is Shas.
Avi Melamed: that has an 11 seats. They are both heredin, meaning. This is the main spine of their ideological identity that we shortly talk about. But there are some interesting differences between the groups. That will kind of like try to further polish or understand later on.
Avi Melamed: in the center. You see that I wrote this big block of mainstream Zionism mainstream Zionism parties are actually the parties that today are the Likud party included in that.
Avi Melamed: and I would also include, of course, in that the left leaning parties, like the Labour Party and Meritz
Avi Melamed: that has been always part of this of this large camp of mainstream Zionism you can find in the mainstream Zionism. Both spectrums of Zionism isn't either in in its right wing formation
Avi Melamed: of the Likud party, or to the left hand side, in the formation of the labor and left of the labor, the Meritz party
Avi Melamed: and together they have some 78 seats.
Avi Melamed: You notice that I have another block of the religious Zionism and the religious Zionism with the 14 seats in the Gnese today.
Avi Melamed: It has, roughly speaking, 2 major component. One is the traditional religious Zionism camp, and the other one is the ultra national right wing camp that was actually born within the hub of the religious Zionism camp. Later on we'll talk about the differentiation, and some, I think.
Avi Melamed: one of the interesting processes that is happening within that camp that I think will have a significant ramifications on the shaping of Israeli political future to ahead. And one last thing, the right hand side. You see, the the Israeli Arab camp
Avi Melamed: Israeli Arabs have today in the Israeli
Avi Melamed: in the Israeli Parliament. They have 10 seats.
Avi Melamed: We will elaborate shortly about that camp as well.
Avi Melamed: So this is, roughly speaking, a screening of the current split of power or seats within the Israeli Parliament. Since the last elections in Israel. The government in Israel has a quite solid majority of some 67 votes that enables the government to function legally, and has the legitimacy to function. Legally.
Avi Melamed: I want to talk about the issue of identity referring to these different different camps.
Avi Melamed: and it's important, I think, to try to understand the components of identities of those scams, because it's very much reflected in the end of the day in the very convoluted and complicated Israeli political system.
Avi Melamed: And I want to start with the Haredim, the Haredim, and I'm trying to use a couple of criterias that will be kind of like the same criterias across the board when we look at these political parties, but try to understand them according to those shared criterias.
Avi Melamed: So one thing is, is the issue of the ideological framework or the ideological envelope that within that the camp is operating.
Avi Melamed: So when we are looking at the Haredim camp, we are looking at a camp that, ideologically speaking, is is operating and existing in a very inflexible ideological framework. This is a framework that actually dictate
Avi Melamed: a very strict religious Codex and dictates uniformity in terms of behavior and cultural, political, religious, social values.
Avi Melamed: This is something which is very significant. Some people describe it as like
Avi Melamed: when it comes to elections and utilizing the political potential power, it is along the line of marching the people to the polls. In other words, since there is a very tough and inflexible ideological envelope
Avi Melamed: that dictates a very tough cultural, social, and political norms and codes.
Avi Melamed: That camp of the Haredim.
Avi Melamed: on the one hand, is the ability to very clearly consolidate a very strong solid interest and define them.
Avi Melamed: and, on the other hand, has the ability to utilize almost to the maximum, the political potential of its constituencies.
Avi Melamed: How regime are about today some 13% of the Israeli society. So when you look at the representation in the Israeli nation. In the political map. You see that, roughly speaking, it's overwhelmingly, you know, overlapping the the way the weight and and proportion in in the in the, in, the, in the community.
Avi Melamed: in the context of the Haredim. One major thing that you probably are aware, of course, is the whole issue of the serving or not serving in the Israeli army. This is something that we shortly will explore when we'll talk about
Avi Melamed: what exactly the term the State means for those for that camp of the Haredi.
Avi Melamed: One other thing that characterizes another criteria that characterizes Haredim is the total rejection of Western core values. Even within the Haredim themselves. There is a sub camp that is even much more, I would say, fundamentally.
Avi Melamed: fundamentalist in its outlook, totally segregating itself physically, let alone operationally from from the political scene. That camp doesn't even, which is small, but that camp doesn't even participate in the in the in the elections.
Avi Melamed: When we look at the same criteria as when we are talking about the religious Zionism in terms of ideological framework or envelope, we are looking at a camp that has somewhat flexible ideological framework.
Avi Melamed: When I'm saying, somewhat flexible, it reflects the fact that, on the one hand.
Avi Melamed: religious Zionism has a quite quite solid, roughly speaking, ideology, particularly centering around the issue of what is called something that we'll refer to in in the next in the next slide. So the in in. In that aspect the the religious Zionism camp is combining both
Avi Melamed: religious context and nationalism.
Avi Melamed: and the combination of that guides a collective based identity in terms of behavior and cultural, political, religious and social values and codes in comparison to Haredi Camp. On that aspect, meaning the
Avi Melamed: the dictating of codes. I would say there is more flexibility
Avi Melamed: in religious Zionism in comparison to the Haredim, though they both kind of like in the end of the day, are subscribing to a large extent their political
Avi Melamed: outlook and the political frame of action. They are subjecting that to the concept of the religious.
Avi Melamed: a dominance in the overall political and everyday behavior.
Avi Melamed: Still, you could see this difference quite clearly between this camp of the religious Zionism and the camp of Haredim.
Avi Melamed: Obviously, once we'll talk about the next slide. When we talk about
Avi Melamed: what is the state of Israel for them, we actually see that the gap is by far much more clear and sharper
Avi Melamed: when we are talking about mainstream Zionism again, along the same lines of those criterias that I mentioned before, namely, ideological flexibility, the place of the individual in such a structure and the issue of Western society.
Avi Melamed: We could see a clearly distinction or difference in comparison to both religious Zionism and of course to heretica
Avi Melamed: in terms of the ideological envelope. The mainstream Zionist camp is is characterized by flexible ideological framework.
Avi Melamed: What does it mean? It means that within the mainstream parties, mainstream Zionism parties.
Avi Melamed: you will find very different opinions, vis-a-vis, some issues
Avi Melamed: that are basically at the core at the heart of the Israeli political insecurity discussion, like, for example, while clearly political party, like Likud or Yash Atid or Shinoy of Ghent.
Avi Melamed: those parties are actually kind of characterized by more hawkish approach towards the issue of the issue of Israel rule in the West bank.
Avi Melamed: in in the sense that they basically are non-compromisingly non-compromising over the the demands that there will be no independent Palestinian State.
Avi Melamed: unless, of course, there are some very significant security arrangements that are being taken, and you will find it at the same time another factor of this mainstream Zionist camp, the leftist, one meaning Avoda, the labor and left of the Avoda. What was merits?
Avi Melamed: Actually you will find that they are basically calling for much more flexible position. Relatively speaking, vis-a-vis, the whole issue of the two-state solution and the establishing of an independent Palestinian State. They'll all come from this camp of mainstream Zionism.
Avi Melamed: And it's interesting, for example, to see that now, right now what has been happening is an outcome of the events was that
Avi Melamed: both the relatively leftist side of the mainstream Zionist camp, namely, the Labour party that once used to be the leading power in Israel. About a generation or so ago the Labor Party of Uda was the biggest party, was kind of like shrinking in times to almost
Avi Melamed: almost non-representation sort of speaking to something like 4 seats in the recent Knesset and the Meritz party. The Leftist version of the Labour Party. The merits party again, after a period of time about 25 years ago, when it basically experienced a momentum.
Avi Melamed: Actually also, like the political, like the part, like the Avoda party, marriage also significantly, was shrinking. And then to this, to this, to the point actually, that the 2 parties together became, with a very small, literally speaking, the political power.
Avi Melamed: What we see right now is that there is a reunion of sort of speaking or combining of those 2 parties actually under the frame of a new appearing party, led by the former Israeli deputy chief of staff, and this is a party called the Democrats.
Avi Melamed: and, according to the recent polls, at least, the Democrats party, which is actually a combination of these 2 Leftist. Relatively speaking, Israeli mainstream Zionist camp, meaning the Democrats party, is is marking a substantial political achievement.
Avi Melamed: According to the polls, it may get something between 12 to 15 seats in in the next. In the next elections. Of course, things by then could, of course, significantly change
Avi Melamed: in terms of the issues of the frame of religious codex. Obviously, you could understand that mainstream parties, the Zionist mainstream parties are basically combining a very pluralistic religious
Avi Melamed: framework meaning. It's subject to the concept that actually says, this is an individual decision. A person could whatever decide if he wants to be religious, or traditional, or observant, or totally secular. There is no dictation in that regards in the context of the world of Judaism or religion is the identity of the supporters
Avi Melamed: of of those of those mainstream Zionist camp.
Avi Melamed: The same applies as for codes of, I would say, social codes or social codes and norms, that while in a heretic camp, or in even religious Zionism, are kind of like more or less existing in a frame that is dictated by these external envelopes, either in the heretic version or in the religious Zionism one. It doesn't really exist in the context of the mainstream Zionism. In other words, there is no
Avi Melamed: biding sort of speaking codex for supporters of the mainstream Zionist camp people that are identifying with the ideology and political outlook of the mainstream Zionist camp. And, in fact, in a way you could say that the ultimate, I would say binding codex in that regard is the sense of
Avi Melamed: citizenship, with all the legal responsibilities as well as as benefits that come along with that with that status
Avi Melamed: and one other thing in the context of Western values, and so on again, while, as we saw, haredis are totally rejecting Western values, while religious zone is kind of like somewhat remote, yet not totally rejecting.
Avi Melamed: Of course, like Haredim in the Western, in the mainstream Zionist camp, we could say quite clearly that overwhelmingly it adopts.
Avi Melamed: I would say, Major Western Western core values. I do, however, will make differentiation between issues, because the way, for example, issues of like Lgbtq is viewed, I would say somewhat differently by by people that are more coming from the leftist part of the Zionist pragmatic camp in comparison to people that are coming from the more
Avi Melamed: right side of the of the of the mainstream Zionist camp. I would say that the major differentiation is that the position of the right wing Israeli parties. Likud is a good example for that, and I do include Likud in that camp, of course.
Avi Melamed: is that they are kind of like. You will find much more, I would say, conservative.
Avi Melamed: and I would say, y'all even resent
Avi Melamed: resentful in a way, a position within that can vis-a-vis the issue of Lgbtq rights. But again, it's something that is not at the core of the ideology. It's not something that in the end of the day is the impact is the one that basically impact the the support in their party or another party.
Avi Melamed: And finally, when we are talking about the camp of Israel, the Arabs, as I mentioned before. Again, in terms of the identity we we are looking at a very interesting.
Avi Melamed: a combo combination, I would say, of that of Israeli arms, because Israeli Arabs has kind of like
Avi Melamed: what I call multi layer identity components.
Avi Melamed: Israeli Arabs are not. Are not Zionists, I mean overwhelmingly. There are here and there Israeli Arabs that identify with the Zionist vision, but they are not Zionist.
Avi Melamed: and and in fact, we could say that to a large extent they don't share the Zionist vision there has been different polls indicating that for Israel Arab
Avi Melamed: there is a willingness of Israel Arabs to recognize the existence of the State of Israel. But it's definitely not something that stems or reflects identification or solidarity with the issue of Zionism. Israel Arabs main, I would say, components of identity.
Avi Melamed: Our first.st The fact that they are in the ethnicity are Arabs.
Avi Melamed: and and they they view themselves as part of the of the Arab world, so to speak.
Avi Melamed: Another thing is the fact that most of them, not all of them, of course, but most of them are Muslims, and so, as such they view themselves as also part of the Muslim world.
Avi Melamed: Not less interesting and significant is that they also view themselves as Palestinians in the sense of, like both the relationship to the geographic area, and and particularly in context of expressing solidarity with, I would say, main narratives of the Palestinian
Avi Melamed: national narrative. If I can use this term, namely, the issue of a two-state solution. East Jerusalem is the capital of the Palestinian State. Again, I have to emphasize in that regard of the identity of Israeli Arabs with the solidarity of Israeli Arabs with the
Avi Melamed: With the Palestinian major national narratives, I would say that there are differences.
Avi Melamed: And one of the interesting thing in my mind is that there has been some growing
Avi Melamed: alienation, I would say, or difference, and following October 7, th
Avi Melamed: because one of the interesting thing to notice in the context of Israeli, Arabs and October 7, is the fact
Avi Melamed: that since October 7, th Israeli Arabs remain totally on the sideline
Avi Melamed: and it is very interesting, because prior to October 7, there has been a process where Israeli Arabs
Avi Melamed: within Israel Arabs. The sentiment of solidarity with Palestinian has been
Avi Melamed: translated within some circles of Israeli Arabs into much more proactive and violent. In some cases actions that resulted in collision within the Israeli authorities and collision between communities.
Avi Melamed: For example, during 2021 in the military round between Israel and Hamas. Back then
Avi Melamed: the guardians of the world operation. As it's known. There has been collision between Israeli and Arabs, Israeli, Jews, and Arabs in mixed cities like in Haifa, like in Akko. In other places, so there has been an interesting
Avi Melamed: brewing process of
Avi Melamed: transition from a point of like legitimate solidarity and identification of Israel Arabs with the Palestinians, the borders Palestinians, into more and more proactive.
Avi Melamed: It's sometimes violent expression of that solidarity. But then came October 7, th and since October 7 there has been totally
Avi Melamed: Israel arms have been, as I said, totally have been staying on the sideline
Avi Melamed: I would definitely attribute that fact
Avi Melamed: to the point that many Israeli Arabs
Avi Melamed: were very much resentful, and and and, you know, couldn't accept
Avi Melamed: the atrocities conducted by Hamas in October 7, th
Avi Melamed: for many Israeli Arabs that in the end of the day are to a large extent integrated into the Israeli fabric at large in terms of education and employment and social circles, and so on, and so on.
Avi Melamed: That was definitely something that was very difficult.
Avi Melamed: It's it's clearly that they basically.
Avi Melamed: they are standing for a statement that says Hamas way is not my way, and Hamas is not the Palestinian factor that I identify with.
Avi Melamed: even though there are some radical segments within Israeli Arabs. So all in all, when you look at the issue of the Israeli Arabs. Post, October 7. 1 of the interesting components to see is the fact that at least up until now they have been totally staying on the sideline
Avi Melamed: in terms of the The the place of the individual in the social and and and behavioral products of Israeli Arabs, I would say that quite similar to
Avi Melamed: religious Zionism, I would say there is a frame that actually dictates some sort of like codex of social behavior, and the fact that most of them, as I said before, are Muslim in their religion, and therefore there is some sort of like an expected codex of behavior. Again, it's not in the level of Haredim. Obviously there is no dictation
Avi Melamed: of the role of the individual to the point. Actually, the individual is stripped off its will, like in the hareding community. But but there is, I would say, something that stands in between when we talk about Israeli Arab, something that stands between between religious Zionism and mainstream Israeli Zionist camp, in the sense that there is no strict dictation
Avi Melamed: of moral, social behavioral codes on the one hand, but there is an expectation for operating within some sort of a frame that in the end of the day, kind of like sets limits for the the role and position of the individual within the largest social frame in this case, talking about the Israeli Arabs.
Avi Melamed: and so I would say that if we are looking at. For example, the Israeli mainstream political camp. Talking about that specific aspect. As I said before, the the abiding codex is the codex of citizenship
Avi Melamed: in the Arab Israeli Arab camp. I would say that the abiding codex is a combination of the citizenship, and some components that are kind of like similar if we want to compare them to the issue of religious religious Zionist camp.
Avi Melamed: So after this you know, kind of introduction to the major components of the identity of those different camps. The question, of course, is, what exactly does the flag of of Israel or the concept of State in our case the state of Israel. What exactly does it mean
Avi Melamed: for for those different? For this, this different groups?
Avi Melamed: And once again, you know, in a way, our discussion goes back to issue of nationalism and statehood and identity, something that we have been dealing
Avi Melamed: quite a lot in in our program from different perspectives, obviously talking about the Arab world. Now we are actually talking about the state of Israel.
Avi Melamed: which is, of course, is overwhelmingly it's it's it's people are Jews.
Avi Melamed: And so it's interesting to see that in the context of Israel and the issue of statehood and flag, it's interesting to see the diversity that is kind of like you would like at least intuitively, you would like to. You would expect to see much more diversity
Avi Melamed: in in Arab States. But basically, when you look at the Israeli, the story of the state of Israel, and particularly in our days. Right now you could find some very interesting, I would say.
Avi Melamed: aspects of this whole discussion of identity and the role of the state of Israel, or, as I call it, what does the flag
Avi Melamed: stands for for the different different communities.
Avi Melamed: So, starting with the Haredim.
Avi Melamed: I would say that for Haredim Haredim are not Zionists. In fact, to a large extent, they are anti-zionists. The Haredim actually
Avi Melamed: argues that the establishing of the State of Israel is something that has been not
Avi Melamed: colliding with the Divine plan. And it's something that is kind of like, not part of the natural course of event and development of of the trajectory of mankind according to the Divine plan. And therefore they are basically anti-zionist.
Avi Melamed: so for Haredim, when you look at their role in the state and their position and relationship with the state of Israel, you could see that to a large extent Israel is A is A is a functional apparatus
Avi Melamed: as far as they are concerned, and the the job, or the or the mission of that functional apparatus called the State of Israel, is actually to to be just a milestone, or to pave path towards the to the towards the biggest
Avi Melamed: religious megastructure, meaning an entity that is ruled according to the Haredi Jewish translation of Judaism, which is very, strict and very, very, very conservative.
Avi Melamed: One expression of that has to do with something that I mentioned before, and this is the whole issue of drafting to the army to the Israeli Defense force
Avi Melamed: right from the early days of the State of Israel. That has been one big elephant in the room.
Avi Melamed: because haredis leaders, haredis, both politicians, of course.
Avi Melamed: and instructed by their spiritual leaders.
Avi Melamed: basically emphasize time and again, that serving in the army is totally out of the question, because their mission, their whole existence, is tuned and and focused on the issue of studying Torah.
Avi Melamed: and strictly applying or implementing the rules of study for storing their everyday life. For them joining the Israeli army has been totally, and is
Avi Melamed: still, to a large extent totally a big no.
Avi Melamed: though there has been some changes in course of time.
Avi Melamed: In course of time there has been a growing tension within the Israeli public opinion regarding that specific issue of serving the army, and particularly given the fact that the Israeli, the challenges Israel has been facing security. Wise has been
Avi Melamed: increasing, and I would even say, you know, exponentially growing in particularly in the last generation.
Avi Melamed: Ironically speaking, I would say that when was a time when Israel was dealing with what we call symmetric war, meaning
Avi Melamed: fighting with Arab armies, that in comparison that was in comparison, much less
Avi Melamed: challenging in the context of the nature of the challenges of the security challenges. Israel has been dealing in the last generation
Avi Melamed: which has been called in the West as an asymmetric war. But basically it was explained wrongly in the West. The right way to explain it is to say, when you are dealing with a situation of an asymmetric war. The way Israel has been dealing for the last 30 years or 4 or more is actually understanding that you got a situation where the State is actually fighting a semi-state entities.
Avi Melamed: designed or designated by most Western powers as terror organization. But they are acting as a semi-state entities, because they are both acting as a governmental powers on the one hand, and also acting as a military powers. On the other hand, but at the same time does not really hold
Avi Melamed: responsibility for the ramifications of their involvement in a violent conflict. You saw that in the case of Hamas. You saw that in the case of Islamic, Jihad, Hezbollah, and others, so in course of time the challenges in terms of Israeli security and the needs has been growing
Avi Melamed: and that has resolved different things, like, for example.
Avi Melamed: the incorporation of female in, in battling units, in all the battling units. To the best of my knowledge, with the exception of the Israeli navy seals and some other elite elite units. But you got an Israeli pilots and Israeli, you know navy women, and and so on, and so on. Obviously, you got women in the armed corps, in the infantry, and so on, and so on.
Avi Melamed: and so that that was one outcome of that. The other outcome of that was that
Avi Melamed: the tension around the whole story of joining, of the hareding, joining to the military service.
Avi Melamed: That change tension has been significantly growing in in course of time. In fact, I think that right now, in these very days we are witnessing the
Avi Melamed: the pinnacle of this of this tense tension. And where you got a government today in Israel, where this government is to a large extent dependent upon the Harvey voice which are part of this government, and one of the major
Avi Melamed: demands of the Haredim in the context of the current government in Israel is to be formally exempted from the form for military service, because, as of now, the situation is that at least formally, once you are 18, you are supposed to join the army, and and and you can be exempted only for specific reason reasons mostly around physical or mental situation, not because you are Haredi, or
Avi Melamed: or your mainstream, or your religious Zionist, and that, basically, of course, is resulting in increasing tension within the Israeli society, because again, it goes back to the fact that
Avi Melamed: haredis, as I said before, are anti-zionist. They don't share the Zionist vision. They view Israel as a functional
Avi Melamed: entity that is supposed to the end of the day provides their needs, and they are playing part of this functional system, utilizing quite effectively the political power, even though they are relatively small segment of the population. They are able to do that because, going back to what I said in the beginning.
Avi Melamed: the assembling of a coalition that is required to be for for the assembling of of A, of a functioning, of a functioning government. Another aspect of the
Avi Melamed: you
Avi Melamed: tense relationship, I would say, between Habedim and the States, roughly speaking, is has to do with the economic aspect.
Avi Melamed: One of the major criticism of Haradem is that
Avi Melamed: there is a significant gap in knowledge of what we call the core studies element, meaning foreign languages, physics, mathematics, and and stuff like that. The outcome of that is an increasing gap
Avi Melamed: between the generation sort of speaking in the sense that
Avi Melamed: we got a situation of perpetuation of a low income society with relatively less skillful, skillful capacities
Avi Melamed: to become more and more incorporated successfully in modern times, that results in a growing burden upon Israeli society. Economically speaking, statistics that have been released basically indicate very clearly that in terms of productivity for the society is economic in economic perspective.
Avi Melamed: The Haredians are definitely not in this place, meaning they are mostly kind of like creating a burden sort of speaking upon the the Israeli, the Israeli economy. So one major point of collision attention, again, is centered around this demand of haredis to
Avi Melamed: to be part of this whole educational system that integrate
Avi Melamed: call studies. So there will be a better ability when the kids are growing up to become much more more successfully integrated in modern society.
Avi Melamed: Yet, again, in that regard
Avi Melamed: there has been change or improvement in the last years we see more and more involvement of hareding in the labor market. We see more and more haredis that are
Avi Melamed: gaining education and and and training in a in an acquired and required jobs. And but still it's kind of like, not enough. It's too little. So to speaking, there is a need for much more substantial change of the whole system.
Avi Melamed: so the impact would be much more significant.
Avi Melamed: The same can be said according in regarding the issue of the military service there are hareding today that are serving in the Idf. This is a process that began way before October 7. There are a couple of units that are obviously based upon only haredis, and only of course, male, even though I would add that there has been or is, project of Haredi women
Avi Melamed: that are integrated with some positions within the Idf. Particularly in in in. In interesting enough, you probably heard about the 8,200 unit
Avi Melamed: the Israeli. 8,200 unit. It's a it's a it's a cyber signal.
Avi Melamed: Leading intelligence agency. There are already women integrated, and there are some in the Air Force. There are some other courses and tracks within the Idf. That offer hareding and mobility
Avi Melamed: within those tracks, becoming officers in the army, or gaining a professional training in one of the many professional careers that the army offers to to people.
Avi Melamed: Yet again the call we are still looking at at a very tense nature of relationship. And right now, particularly right now, there is clearly a pinnacle of this tension in Israel.
Avi Melamed: The most recent update, for example, is that the Prime Minister, Netanyahu met with the one of the leaders, spiritual leaders which are actually the highest source of authority of haredis political system. Netanyahu met with this person, and this person actually says that the Haredi are not going to.
Avi Melamed: and, you know, dissemble the government over the issue of
Avi Melamed: the law of recruitment. Because in the past they have already threatened that if that law that Netanyahu promised them is going to pass, if that law is not going to be passed. They are going to withdraw from the government, and that will lead to the downfall of the government. Currently, that's the most recent update.
Avi Melamed: Just the same. Regardless of the political aspect from a public perspective, we are definitely looking at some very, I would say, contested and intense issue
Avi Melamed: within the Israeli Republic a discussion within the Israeli political.
Avi Melamed: social, and economic system, the the the place of the Haredis in this whole
Avi Melamed: construction that is called the State of Israel.
Avi Melamed: When we look at this issue of what does the flag stand for.
Avi Melamed: and what is Israel for you? When we look at Haredis and religious Zionism, we see something. This is different, and it's interesting. The interesting thing is the haredis, rather known also as Shas
Avi Melamed: the common denominator. If you look from those perspective of those 2 camps, is that they view Israel as a stag
Avi Melamed: on the path to ideological and political megastructure that is called erecticile.
Avi Melamed: Roughly speaking, to say, they basically say that
Avi Melamed: the ultimate manifestation of the state of Israel is a frame, geographic and moral and religious frame
Avi Melamed: they called Israel, which geographically is extending beyond the current borders of Israel, namely, it is including the west bank. It is including the Gaza strip, and and that is an entity that in their vision is in the end of the day supposed to be the ultimate manifestation of this thing called
Avi Melamed: Israel, who is saying, and they call it, which is basically referring to the old terminology. Associated with this with this piece piece of land.
Avi Melamed: It's interesting to look at it because the heredity Paradikshaus
Avi Melamed: basically originated from the Mizrahi communities in Israel, Mizrahi communities in Israel. The major Boost was during the fifties and the sixties, when some almost 1 million Mizrahi Jews that basically flee from Arab States made their way to the State of Israel.
Avi Melamed: They came from North Africa, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and all over they actually made their way to Israel. Most of them stayed in Israel. Some of them went elsewhere.
Avi Melamed: And and this hub of Mizrahi. Jews actually, in course of time.
Avi Melamed: suffered a lot of disachieving status, struggling in terms of both economic and educational achievements.
Avi Melamed: traditionally kind of like.
Avi Melamed: regarded as more as poor, unachieving, non-productive sector, and that resulted in in course of time a lot of
Avi Melamed: resentment and anger and protest within Sepharani Mizrahi Jews
Avi Melamed: that anger led at some point in the seventies to a major burst of violence conducted by the second generation of the Mizrahi Jews. The phenomenon that used to be known by the name of the Black Panthers. It was also inspired by something similar that happened with African American community. Back then, in the seventies in the United States.
Avi Melamed: I personally grew up in one of those neighborhoods, and I remember those very rough years in Jerusalem in the early seventies, where there was a very riot, you know, violent riots of this
Avi Melamed: second generation, that to a large extent was very much justified in the sense that they really have been deprived of, discriminated against, and so on. And so that was one manifestation of this growing some sort of like side identity within Mizrahi Jews that came from North America and other parts of the Arab world. The other thing that happened
Avi Melamed: actually evolved within the Haredi Ashkenazi movement that is going to result in the branch of the Haredi Sepharity.
Avi Melamed: whom
Avi Melamed: at the beginning many of those Sepharmayk, Jewish, Mizrahi families who are very traditional in their perspective, they send the kids to learn in Haredi Ashkenazi
Avi Melamed: systems. In course of time there has been growing
Avi Melamed: sentiments of like being discriminated against being looked at like, you know, inferior sort of speaking by the Ashkenazis, and that has resulted in with the combination of this
Avi Melamed: and riots of the black panthers that I described earlier, that resulted in the birth of
Avi Melamed: what is going to become chass.
Avi Melamed: That's the initials, the the Sepharidi keepers of Torah, and it started rising in the horizon back towards the late seventies and and onwards, and Shas is coming from the heart of the Haredi camp. But they are Sepharadim, and one of the interesting thing that
Avi Melamed: characterizes chance was that, unlike the Haredim Ashkenazi, Haredim, who are totally disassociated from
Avi Melamed: the state and the Zionist thing, the Sepharadic Haredim basically are very much identifying with to a large extent with the concept of Israel and Zionist camp.
Avi Melamed: People that came in the early phase of the establishing of Shas came also were part of the Israeli society and integrated into that. But then, in course of time, what happened was
Avi Melamed: that more and more there has been some process of radicalization within chass in the sense of like moving more and more towards relatively closer to the Haredi Ashkenazi model.
Avi Melamed: And and rather than kind of like, it's kind of like
Avi Melamed: detaching or kind of like departing
Avi Melamed: slowly but gradually from the origin of the Sepharidic Mizrahi roots of the of the haredic community.
Avi Melamed: and and and that resulted in some interesting process where,
Avi Melamed: the place of Israel and Zionism. In the discussion of Haredi Sepharadi camp, the Shahs
Avi Melamed: became less emphasized, relatively speaking, to the early days of the beginning of that movement.
Avi Melamed: Still, from a from a
Avi Melamed: perspective of Zionism and Israel, they do emphasize the centrality of those concepts in their identity. But there has been some sub-current evolving during time within the heretic Sepharity Camp Shas camp. They're kind of like detached itself
Avi Melamed: from those those concepts
Avi Melamed: when we are looking at the religious Zionism, the picture is much clearer. Religious Zionism has been a major core. It's spine. One of major spine is the whole issue of the State of Israel, even though it's kind of like, envisioned this Mega's entity of Arab Israel.
Avi Melamed: At the same time the religious Zionism group in Israel actually centered the whole issue of Israel. Not only Heritz, Israel, but Israel, is a major core of component, obviously identifying concept of Zionism.
Avi Melamed: however, following the 67 War, there has been also very interesting process that took place within religious Zionism.
Avi Melamed: The essence of this process is that in course of time, and particularly against the background of the of the phenomenon of the movement of the settlement, a movement that was born in the hub of religious Zionism.
Avi Melamed: There has been a process of more and more emphasizing the vision of Eret, Israel.
Avi Melamed: or Eretz Israel, a Shlema.
Avi Melamed: the complete, the holistic, the whole earth, Israel in the religious Zionism, camp and ideology, and politics at the expense of Israel.
Avi Melamed: In other words.
Avi Melamed: though of course, the main spine remain, and this is the uncompromising devotion to the issue of Zionism and the state of Israel. Religious Zionism is heart and parcel of the whole structure, and particularly the military structure.
Avi Melamed: At the same time, there has been process where there has been more and more
Avi Melamed: voices within this camp that more and more prioritize in their view, ideologically speaking.
Avi Melamed: the concept of Eret, Israel Ashlemah.
Avi Melamed: which in course of time became very clear that this is something that is in more and more growing collision course with the main
Avi Melamed: trajectory of Zionism. In the last, I would say 50 years.
Avi Melamed: That process was very significant, because it has resulted in the birth of an ultra
Avi Melamed: ultra national right wing within
Avi Melamed: religious Zionism and the ultra national right wing within religious Zionism actually was. There has been a process brewing within that camp of the ultra national right wing. And the process was further
Avi Melamed: further detaching, and and from the place of
Avi Melamed: religious Zionism in the concept that is called the State of Israel, and much, much, much more, leaning towards the whole issue of
Avi Melamed: to the point. It actually resulted in not only an ideological
Avi Melamed: friction between the ultra national right wing camp that was
Avi Melamed: born within religious Zionism and and Zionist main camp. It also resulted in
Avi Melamed: a growing conflict within the ultra-national right-wing camp and the concept of
Avi Melamed: democratic structure that in the end of the day is abiding all the people that are part of it. In other words, we are looking at a process where the ideology of the ultra right wing
Avi Melamed: that was growing within
Avi Melamed: the religious Israeli, religious, Jewish, and religious Zionist camp, that ideology resulted into the place where, basically
Avi Melamed: for those component, the ultra national right wing, Israel, in a way, is.
Avi Melamed: ironically speaking, to say, Israel is also a function.
Avi Melamed: It's a function that its purpose is to pave the way to the establishing of the erat Israel.
Avi Melamed: And the meaning of that is that.
Avi Melamed: And it's being manifested in the current government, where, for the 1st time ever the actually the ultra right wing in Israel came to a power, a substantial power in the Israeli government, and actually they became the power holder sort of speaking.
Avi Melamed: It comes very clearly in the way that they basically function in this current government in other way. In other words.
Avi Melamed: out of the outlook of the state of Israel as as an apparatus.
Avi Melamed: a mechanism that is supposed to serve
Avi Melamed: the concept of Shlema. You could see very clearly that
Avi Melamed: the way the current Israeli government is acting and functioning to a large extent is subject to that outlook that is being dictated by the ultra national right wing.
Avi Melamed: a camp that was born within religious religious Zionism.
Avi Melamed: When you look at the issue of the flag and the state of Israel. In the context of the mainstream, Zionism
Avi Melamed: could see that, rough, roughly speaking, we can say that
Avi Melamed: in for that camp, whether it's coming from it's more right. Wing affiliated wing like in the shape of record or the left
Avi Melamed: in the shape of the Democrats party. Let's put it this way today.
Avi Melamed: The state, Israel is the political and ideological megastructure.
Avi Melamed: Roughly speaking, I would say that, for example, differently from
Avi Melamed: right wing from the religious ultra-national right wing, and I would even say differently from the traditional religious Zionism outlook of Eret Saila Shlemah.
Avi Melamed: I think that it will be accurate to say that the components of the mainstream Zionist camp, their position vis-a-vis, that in the end of the day they don't stand, or they don't support it.
Avi Melamed: at least not practically, and I would even say, not ideologically.
Avi Melamed: In other words.
Avi Melamed: I would say that the average voter of Likud party, or Yes, attid or current Democrat party, or Shinoy and others those parties that are coming from the temple of mainstream. I would say that the average voter
Avi Melamed: does not support the concept of. They don't support the concept of. Like further Israeli expansion of borders. They don't support the annexation
Avi Melamed: of of Palestinian co-populated areas, neither in the West Bank and Gaza strip. It has been manifested actually, when you look at the story of the Israeli political map since 19 following 67, when the settlement movement appeared somewhere back in the 1st 1st half of the seventies, and up until today.
Avi Melamed: overwhelmingly, the number of Israelis who basically went to leave in either West Bank or
Avi Melamed: Judan, Samaria or Gaza strip in the end of the day reflects a small segment of the Jewish population in Israel, and many of those people who went to live in those places meaning those who went to live in big settlements because there are a couple of big settlements
Avi Melamed: are basically motivated to a large extent by much more practical perspectives, like housing, cheaper housing solutions and advanced services rather than necessarily the ideological component. If you're familiar with the State of Israel. The map, for example, can talk about place like Malaya Dumim, the second largest
Avi Melamed: Israeli settlement in the west bank. One exceptional is the settlement of Beta, which is predominantly haredi one
Avi Melamed: but again, it's also mostly in the context of
Avi Melamed: answering practical needs. But, roughly speaking, when we look at the camp of mainstream Zionism and the concept of Israel. It is not an apparatus for something. It's not a mechanism that's supposed to serve something. This is. This is the something that actually defines
Avi Melamed: the ultimate identity for those majority of people.
Avi Melamed: And finally, when we are looking at the Israeli Arab king
Avi Melamed: again, they are not Zionist. In fact, they are anti-zionist, and for them, similar to the Haredim Israel is a functional apparatus. In other words, this is a system or mechanism that is, in the end of the day supposed to provide Israeli Arabs with the services based upon the nature of
Avi Melamed: packed relationship between cities and and government.
Avi Melamed: they pay the taxes the government provided provides the services, and so on. Obviously, as you could understand overwhelmingly. Israeli Arabs do not serve, for example, in the Israeli army, and they are not basically demand to serve in the army. They do have the ability to do a national service. By the way, the option of National service is one of the things that has been offered
Avi Melamed: constantly also for Haredim saying to Haredim, okay, if you don't
Avi Melamed: join the army. What you are required to do is a national service, meaning providing some services on a voluntary base in your own community. And and indeed many people, particularly Israeli Arabs, some Haredim, as well realize or materialize that that option to do a national and national service. But in the end of the day. Interesting enough. You could see that when you look at the spectrum of this picture.
Avi Melamed: Israel, the Arab, the non-zionist, Haredis, the non-zionist, as well. We would even say, both are anti-zionist, are both looking at the state of Israel as an apparatus, as a functional apparatus. The difference is that while in the frame of the haredis. This is only apparatus that is, part of
Avi Melamed: a path or trajectory leading to a larger megastructure. In that case of the hareding, a religious megastructure. That is not necessarily the case in the story of the Israeli Arabs. They merely talking about and looking about it in the context of the contract or the pack
Avi Melamed: between citizens and and government.
Avi Melamed: So, all in all, when you look at this picture, I think that you could see there are many layers of complexity, sort of speaking in terms of the identity and in terms of the major, I would say theme or guiding lines that actually
Avi Melamed: set for each camp. They're all their own field lines, and they are operating within that field line.
Avi Melamed: Now, when you look at all these things together, meaning, when you look at the complexity in the terms of the what does the state mean for you? And when you look in the complexity, in the context of the identity. And you see that the things are intertwined. Obviously you can understand the complexity
Avi Melamed: of the and effectiveness
Avi Melamed: of an Israeli government that is based upon assembling the coalition. If you got a government that is based upon one major factor, let's say, for example, there is going to be a government that is all
Avi Melamed: totally based upon mainstream Zionist camp.
Avi Melamed: You will find that this government has to deal let with some inner
Avi Melamed: tension. Obviously, but that's mostly not the case, because most of the times we are looking at governments assembled in Israel that had to bring different components into the government, including hareding, including the safariding, the religious Zionist, the mainstream camp, and so on, and so on. So the meaning of that was, of of course, inevitably is that there has to be a lot of give and take
Avi Melamed: in the political game where the parts for mutual benefit sort of speaking, in order to stay in power, basically has to
Avi Melamed: to give some, and to take some sort of speaking in in in this, in this whole
Avi Melamed: congregation, so to speak, the bottom line of that is that again, it basically mostly, I would say, based upon the concept of compromising.
Avi Melamed: You have to give some. You have to let some. You have to compromise here. You have to, you can get something else there. It's basically essential for the establishing of compromising as a guiding line, and pragmatism is a guiding line of the functioning of government.
Avi Melamed: I think that when we understand this characteristic oh.
Avi Melamed: it could provide us to a large extent, I would say,
Avi Melamed: The a major key, not the only one, but a major key for understanding the essence of this conflict or or crisis
Avi Melamed: that we see today in Israel.
Avi Melamed: Because I would say that today we see in Israel a government that the component of compromising and pragmatism has been to a large extent pushed aside.
Avi Melamed: It doesn't really hmm.
Avi Melamed: Play a role in the policy making and behavior of this government, and because that government is
Avi Melamed: unprecedented in the sense that this is the 1st time in the history of Israel.
Avi Melamed: That that there is no participation of most
Avi Melamed: of the Israeli mainstream Zionist camp.
Avi Melamed: and in fact, the only participation of an Israeli mainstream. Zionist camp is the Likud party.
Avi Melamed: and then a good party in this government.
Avi Melamed: though the Likud is the biggest parties in Israel, the Likud party in this government is
Avi Melamed: is, is, is weak because
Avi Melamed: the survival of the government is dependent upon the partners, and the partners of this government are coming from either the already
Avi Melamed: a non Zionist anti-zionist camp and the ultra national right wing. That is, as I said before.
Avi Melamed: definitely, really prioritizing its ideological vision
Avi Melamed: before the concept of the state of Israel. It definitely views Israel as an apparatus, not as an objective for itself.
Avi Melamed: and the outcome of that is that we see
Avi Melamed: the current crisis in Israel were to a large extent
Avi Melamed: the a major spine of the Israeli Society is left out.
Avi Melamed: But it's not only that it's a major spine of the Israeli economy. It's the major spine in the end of the day of this whole
Avi Melamed: entity that is called Israel, because
Avi Melamed: most of the people that are kind of like, not included today
Avi Melamed: are serving in the Israeli defense forces. These are the people that has been recruited constantly.
Avi Melamed: particularly over following October 7th to to to military service.
Avi Melamed: while at the same time the Israeli Government is exempting the Haredin from the military service. So you see that
Avi Melamed: when we look at the I would say, the essence of the crisis, and I leave aside some personal aspects and behavior. I think that one of the major keys to understand the crisis is just what I've described right now.
Avi Melamed: And and and and and and the fact that
Avi Melamed: the need for compromising and pragmatism that has been always a major characteristic of Israeli governments.
Avi Melamed: particularly vis-a-vis. The groups in community that have been left out of power.
Avi Melamed: that component is absent in the current government. And not only that, it's absent, it is living out of power, the
Avi Melamed: spying the major spine of Israeli society.
Avi Melamed: And that obviously results in this growing big tension and crisis that that we see that we see today.
Avi Melamed: In in Israel, and kind of like to conclude my presentation
Avi Melamed: from trying to look ahead and looking at the current situation and in
Avi Melamed: between the lines, I think that one of the interesting thing to to see is the
Avi Melamed: yeah. There is, in my view, a very clear, interesting.
Avi Melamed: though difficult to identify, process that takes place within religious Zionism. The camp that I mentioned before.
Avi Melamed: The essence of this change is that in religious Zionism the current government
Avi Melamed: ironically. Anyway, I would say, because religious Zionism is part of the government.
Avi Melamed: but there are clear segments growing segments, I would say, within religious Zionism, indeed, that are not happy with the government, but not for the reason that you may think actually they are kind of like, more and more resentful with the current government, because
Avi Melamed: they view the current government as if it is hmm.
Avi Melamed: Actually moving away from the traditional core of Zionism and Israel, not the land of Israel, not Israel in their identity. So I think it will be very interesting to see what will be the ramifications
Avi Melamed: of that process in the upcoming, restructured and Israeli political political net.
Avi Melamed: This point I'm concluding my presentation, and
Avi Melamed: opening this session to your questions.
Raihaana: I have a question. It's only half related to this, though, like it relates to Zionism. So if someone has a question about the presentation. They can go 1st
Avi Melamed: Go ahead! Rihanna
Raihaana: Okay. So my aunt posted something that I found to be really disturbing. She basically said that like free Palestine from Hamas is a common expression, banded by about
Raihaana: by people who hope to appear to be sympathetic to the suffering of Gazans by absolving themselves the Idf and the Israeli Government from any responsibility. And like, I fundamentally disagree with this because she's basically saying that, like, if you say free Palestine from Hamas, like, you're a bad person that justifies terrorism. That's kind of the thought process. However, as we learnt today, not everyone in the
Raihaana: government is a Zionist, you know, there's Christians. There's Muslims. There's the Haredim who believe that the establishment of Israel is against the Divine plan. So
Raihaana: my question is kind of how do we take this knowledge and explain it to people who think that statements like free Palestine from terrorists is something that's a negative and not a positive
Avi Melamed: I'm kind of like struggling to understand. What's the the focal point of the question, because you bring different elements to that. I'm not so sure. The dialogue
Raihaana: Yeah. So so the question is basically like.
Raihaana: people say that like so free power, like in this specific context, my question is, is like my aunt saying is that like free Palestine from Hamas is what people say to excuse Zionism, because in her mind Zionism equals terrorism. But and it's like an excuse to support
Raihaana: the genocidal government of Israel. But as we know not, everyone in the Israeli government is a Zionist, so how can we explain that to other people that not everyone that is in the Knesset is a Zionist and supports what's happening
Avi Melamed: Well, I mean it. It starts with the need to
Avi Melamed: confront this attempt to compare or to to argue that Zionism, equal genocide, or Zionism equals
Avi Melamed: Western colonialism, and so on. There is a need to to confront this, this false argument that became very common in some circles.
Avi Melamed: Which is part of the part of the bigger challenge that you know
Avi Melamed: we are looking at today when it comes to understanding the issue of the of the region and the way the region impacts the story of the Israeli-palestinian conflict. So the opening point should be
Avi Melamed: to totally discredit or confront
Avi Melamed: this underlying assumption that talks about Zionism equals
Avi Melamed: genocidal equals, Western colonialism. This is this is 1 1 aspect, and and for that there is a lot of factual, based information that is
Avi Melamed: done by different organizations that are engaged in Israel advocacy per se.
Avi Melamed: We. We are not engaged in Israel advocacy per se. We are trying to understand the different components of the region and how they impact the trajectory of the conflict. And today we we kind of like, you know, we put the spotlight on understanding a little bit better the inner Israeli structure. And and what's the powers that are shaping it?
Avi Melamed: As for the argument that free Palestine from Hamas.
Avi Melamed: My take on that is, is from a different perspective.
Avi Melamed: We I'm familiar with people that says that. That.
Avi Melamed: it's it's an interesting loop, because there are people who actually says they're coming from a point that is more close to Israel's position when when they're saying Hamas is occupied by Gaza, and therefore Gaza should be
Avi Melamed: released from Hamasu.
Avi Melamed: My push back on that will be as a factual base to say, Hamas is part of Gaza
Avi Melamed: and Hamas is part and parcel of Gaza, and based in Gaza, and it took control over Gaza violently in 2,007. But it rules Gaza, and there are many, many people in Gaza strip that benefit Hamas.
Avi Melamed: So making the statement in a way, even though those who make that statement are in a way kind of like coming from a position, that is.
Avi Melamed: I would say, leaning towards the Israeli side.
Avi Melamed: I would say that in a way, it's kind of like boomerang, because it basically
Avi Melamed: trying to present a reality that is inaccurate
Avi Melamed: the the inaccurate reality that it present is that Hamas is occupier of Palestinians, and you know it's it's kind of like an external force that came and occupied Gaza. That's not the case. Hamas is from Gaza Street.
Avi Melamed: There needs to be a distinction between the fact that indeed, many Palestinians don't support Hamas and resent Hamas. But there are many Palestinians who support Hamas.
Avi Melamed: and and so I think that it's important to do to do that distinction. So I think that in your questions there are 2
Avi Melamed: assumptions or concepts that has to be, I think, addressed
Avi Melamed: the way I was referring to again from our perspective as Itme. We are not an Israel Advocacy group. We are not a Palestinian Advocacy group.
Avi Melamed: We are trying to understand
Avi Melamed: the the region and the ramifications in the context of the Israeli-palestinian conflict, and I think that is an overhaul
Avi Melamed: directing line in every aspect.
Avi Melamed: One of the things that we strongly encourage you as itme fellows is to to
Avi Melamed: to express a very strong rejection
Avi Melamed: to the mindset of slogans and buzzwords and narratives that are very easy, and, and, you know, digestible.
Avi Melamed: because that's not the way to understand complex reality. And that's not the way to understand complex conflicts.
Avi Melamed: And so one of the thing that we encourage all of you is
Avi Melamed: always to in any kind of discussion. To say
Avi Melamed: this is not a fruitful discussion. If it's if it's coming to be sum up to narratives and concepts and slogans.
Avi Melamed: Zionists are apartheid, and Palestinians are terrorists, it's not working. This is, these are these are slogans and narratives that don't enable
Avi Melamed: a constructive discussion. And therefore we definitely emphasize.
Avi Melamed: And those perspectives in our work
Raihaana: That was really insightful. Thank you so much.
Avi Melamed: Sure corn.
Carl J. Chiappa: Great presentation as usual. Thanks, Avi, it was interesting to shift the focus from the Middle East to internal
Carl J. Chiappa: Israeli political dynamics. I have just a a few quick, I hope, quick, follow-up questions
Carl J. Chiappa: with respect to the idea that
Carl J. Chiappa: because the current government depends upon
Carl J. Chiappa: parties that in in the past have been somewhat more marginalized, and that the mainstream Zionist parties
Carl J. Chiappa: are are not participating, and and thus the compromise has kind of been undermined.
Carl J. Chiappa: What are are the mainstream Zionist parties looking for in terms of compromise that you think
Carl J. Chiappa: their absence is undermining? What what kinds of issues is it that that they want the Government to compromise on. But the Government won't or can't, because of its comp its current composition.
Avi Melamed: I think I think that there are come couple of core issues that today that camp that is
Avi Melamed: excluded. And this is, I'm talking about the major spine in the end of the day of the State of Israel. I would say that core issues of that camp has to do with
Avi Melamed: 2, I would say, roughly speaking categorically, 2 2 aspects. One is in the context of the pack, between the citizen and the in the State.
Avi Melamed: and in in that in that category I would include
Avi Melamed: not only the technical level of services and allocations of budget, and so on and so on. I will definitely include into the the whole issue of the legal system.
Avi Melamed: and particularly in the context of the rule of the law.
Avi Melamed: Today there is a major deep concern within large segments of the Israeli public
Avi Melamed: that in the era of this lack of compromise and pragmatism
Avi Melamed: the rule of law in Israel is jeopardized. So this is this is one category that I would say, and the other one, I would say, will center around the issue of like, and it goes back to what I said, what exactly this this flag stands for.
Avi Melamed: and right now we we could see very clearly. There is a a clear collision between the
Avi Melamed: traditional Zionist outlook going back all the way to the early days of Zionism which the early days Zionism, through all the way the main camp was centered around this compromise and pragmatic approach.
Avi Melamed: And today what we see is that
Avi Melamed: the early days, Zionism segment that was kind of like, much less compromising
Avi Melamed: and much more tough in its ideological perspective, is now this power struggle that has been since early day of Zionism.
Avi Melamed: This power struggle is now further taking the stage, and it's much more, I would say dramatic aspect because of the fact
Avi Melamed: that this is actually the 1st time ever where ultra national right wing
Avi Melamed: has a power in its hand to basically hold this government
Avi Melamed: a situation or position that it has never, ever been to, and at the same time representative, or the descendants of what you say. Mainstream pragmatic Zionism are actually excluded
Avi Melamed: from the position of influence. So we are looking, I would say, roughly speaking, on a conflict or a power struggle within Israel. If I could say that
Avi Melamed: over both the body and soul of the state of Israel.
Carl J. Chiappa: Thanks very much. So a quick kind of follow up.
Carl J. Chiappa: because it isn't there a little bit of a chicken and egg problem here? We've always had, even since Ben Gurion. If I'm correct this issue of national, you know, of being in the army, and and whether and he
Carl J. Chiappa: who obviously wasn't terribly sympathetic, but agreed that the Haredi would not serve in in the army to me a sort of, I think, practical decision.
Carl J. Chiappa: So you you had this division all along
Carl J. Chiappa: is part of the problem. Now that there isn't so much the cause isn't so much a failure to compromise
Carl J. Chiappa: as the external pressures have become such that internal divisions in Israel
Carl J. Chiappa: have become more intensified. In other words, it almost goes back to your global look at the situation to understand Israel. You have to understand the Middle East.
Carl J. Chiappa: Not understanding the Middle East through the through the lens of Israel, so that
Carl J. Chiappa: part of the failure to compromise internally is that internally Israeli society
Carl J. Chiappa: is more divided and and perhaps more fractured, and, by the way, may not look so different
Carl J. Chiappa: than the United States in this regard, except that we're in a better neighborhood. That that in a sense.
Carl J. Chiappa: pressures internally in Israel are being caused by external pressures on Israel
Carl J. Chiappa: any any? Is there any legitimacy to that? That? In other words, it's harder to compromise now, because people's positions have hardened, in part because the neighborhood, if anything, has gotten worse over the last 70 years.
Avi Melamed: The answer, for that is definitely. It's very legitimate, and it's very accurate. In fact, I was referring to that when I said that one of the major reasons for this growing tension vis-a-vis. The issue of service in the army of Haredim was that
Avi Melamed: when you look at the security challenges of Israel. In the last 30, 40 years they have been enormously increasing and intensifying with this whole issue that I was talking about what is called the asymmetric war that was totally misunderstood, I would say, in some Western circles, what exactly is the asymmetric war? And, in fact, in our next session, when we'll talk about the whole issue of Iran and the whole issue of the access of resistance.
Avi Melamed: And this network of
Avi Melamed: semi-state entities that I referred to shortly in my presentation. Today we will definitely see how enormously it has impacted not only the Israeli-palestinian conflict, but also the Inner Israeli discussion. So this is one aspect, the other aspect that it also enormously impacted, is again in the context of the inner Israeli discussion or
Avi Melamed: perspectives regarding what is, what is Zionism in our perspective. What is.
Avi Melamed: do we? We do? Do we want to go to the far, extreme right wing of
Avi Melamed: basically, you know, annexing the west bank and Gaza strip. And but but, you know, depriving Palestinians of citizens right? In other words, are we going to become a formally an apartheid state, or is it going to become a State. That is a democratic state where you don't annex
Avi Melamed: other people, and you have to compromise with another national movement that has legitimate claims for for the land, and and that sharpens the inner Israeli discussion and any inner Israeli tension.
Avi Melamed: And on top of that, as we all know, and you mentioned very accurately the sample of the United States. Everything is being boosted and tripled and quadrupled, given to the impact of the social media, and that actually resulted in a world that I'm very resentful to use. But I don't have another word to use
Avi Melamed: distorted discussion.
Avi Melamed: The word discussion. It seems to be like many times totally irrelevant in what, in the context of what we are saying definitely we. This is a clear example of how the external envelope, the events outside in the end of the day has been influencing the intensification of the discussion within Israel
Carl J. Chiappa: As you always say, we. I could ask questions now for hours. But thank you. Thank you very much for that. Avi
Avi Melamed: Of course Miranda
Miranda Ruzinsky: Hi, avi, thank you for that talk.
Miranda Ruzinsky: So to put into context. I
Miranda Ruzinsky: only know the term Zionism from a historical context. Looking at it from the time of its creation in the 19th century, solidification of it as a movement, and then, knowing Hadassah and stuff like that, so knowing it as a political ideology, a religious ideology. I don't know much about Israeli
Miranda Ruzinsky: modern politics. So this was my 1st in depth. Look at it so I would just like a little bit of help on understanding. What exactly do you mean by Zionism? Because you used it as a major term in defining
Miranda Ruzinsky: the political identities of certain groups, and I do understand the limits of identity terminology. So it's a way of helping us view what the different groups are. But to me Zionism is seen as a justification, or this belief that Israel should exist. So does this mean that most political ideologies and frameworks of these groups in Israel are mostly related to
Miranda Ruzinsky: Israeli survival in existence, and you also use 2 terms, non-zionist and anti-zionist. And I'm wondering, are those one in the same?
Miranda Ruzinsky: Or are they different attitudes towards Israel? Shouldn't exist versus just an indifference to its existence. Or I'm thinking of the way you were describing the relationship that Israeli Arabs have to the State
Miranda Ruzinsky: so not so much attached to its survival as a State as a nation state. And so I'm just a little confused on that. So if you could clarify
Avi Melamed: Yes, of course. Thank you. First, st when I'm saying Zionism, Zionism is a national movement that appeared in the middle of the 19th century, and it centered around the
Avi Melamed: Id.
Avi Melamed: That it is time to renew
Avi Melamed: Jewish sovereignty, and the very same place where Jewish sovereignty used to exist. And this is a place that
Avi Melamed: has been known for history by the name of
Avi Melamed: and the land of Israel Zion. It also has been known in course of time also, the name of Palestine, which is the same territorial area. So in its essence, Zionism is the vision of
Avi Melamed: we
Avi Melamed: newing, re-establishing Jewish sovereignty on the very same place where Jewish sovereignty used to exist thousands of years ago.
Avi Melamed: Yeah, I think it's important to emphasize the concept of
Avi Melamed: renewing and the concept of the relationship to that piece of land.
Avi Melamed: and I think it's also important to emphasize that that piece of land also has a place for other people
Avi Melamed: that are known as Palestinians. And, as I said before, when you look at the evolving of the conflict, at least I definitely say I'm an Israeli. I'm a Jew. I define myself as a Zionist, but I also acknowledge the validity and legitimacy of the relationship of people that are known as Palestinians to that very peace of land.
Avi Melamed: So this is in the context of the way I define Zionism, and
Avi Melamed: in the context of anti-zionist and non-zionist. Indeed, it is kind of like a little bit, sometimes
Avi Melamed: difficult to to explain. But I'll try again to to reiterate
Avi Melamed: you said, and I think you got it right when you said, like the Haredim are anti-zionist, because it's kind of like colliding with the
Avi Melamed: overarching ideology that that actually views trajectory of mankind, and particularly in Jewish people, is something that has to be done according with Divine plan, and that Divine plan does not include establishing of a political entity that is called the State of Israel, that is.
Avi Melamed: core element is Zionist.
Avi Melamed: So this is anti-zionism, because it's kind of like colliding with their
Avi Melamed: overarching core belief of the Haredi.
Avi Melamed: And I gave the example of the Sephora dictions.
Avi Melamed: The Sephah dictions are not anti-zionist.
Avi Melamed: The Sepharadishas are praying for the well-being of the State of Israel, and the soldiers of Israel the Harvedes. Ashkenazis don't do that.
Avi Melamed: And the Sepharradi Shahs are basically do preserve this sense of the significance. But they are not anti-zionists.
Avi Melamed: They are not necessarily pro-zionists, but the concept of
Avi Melamed: the state of Israel as manifestation of the Zionist vision.
Avi Melamed: That concept is valid in their outlook.
Avi Melamed: So this is an example. When you talk about Israeli Arabs, some Israeli Arabs are anti Zionists.
Avi Melamed: some Israeli Arabs are non-zionist.
Avi Melamed: for example, you know, if you look at Israeli Arabs who are Christians.
Avi Melamed: You will find among that segment which is a small segment within Israeli Arabs. You will find people that are
Avi Melamed: and
Avi Melamed: not Zionist. And, by the way, we find also people in that segment that are Zionist that I identify with the but they identify with that element through the core of
Avi Melamed: viewing the state of Israel is a legitimate manifestation of the school of Zionism.
Avi Melamed: A
Avi Melamed: We also when we talked about the issue of
Avi Melamed: the ultra right wing, the Israeli ultra right wing. There it becomes even, I would say, in a way, a little bit more complicated because the origin of that is coming from religious Zionism. It's coming from a camp that defined itself
Avi Melamed: as a religious and Zionist.
Avi Melamed: But then you got ultra national right wing in their definition.
Avi Melamed: They are not anti or non-zionists. In their definition. They basically says, we are the real Zionists. We are the real manifestation of Zionism when they are talking about this
Avi Melamed: expression of the Eratisraela Shlema.
Avi Melamed: And and so you're right. It's very confusing. There are many nuance to that discussion.
Avi Melamed: And again, you know if we compared it to the discussion where we have about nationalism in the Arab world.
Avi Melamed: and going all the way back to the very 1st session with Mr. Al-hamis. And then, when we talked with Dalia Ziada about the different ideologies in the Arab world, one of the interesting expressions that I've heard in that context was that people says there are people that say there is no thing. As an Arab world.
Avi Melamed: There are people that are ethnicity is Arab in the sense that their mother tongue is Arabic. But that's it.
Avi Melamed: And so, for example, you will see today Lebanese, who are saying it's not new. By the way. They say we rather emphasize the component of the Phoenician history of our land rather than the Arab part, even though we speak Arabic, and this is our mother tongue.
Avi Melamed: they would not necessarily view themselves as an Arabs.
Avi Melamed: And and so again it goes back to the complexity of definition of identities, and and in the case of Zionism, as you indicated very accurately, it's very confusing, because there are these different aspects. But I do think that going back to the question of like you know, how do you address this discussion?
Avi Melamed: I think to say to people in A, in A, in a constructive discussion, to say, look when you're talking about Zionism, you have to understand. There are many.
Avi Melamed: many layers. There are many aspects of that issue. There are different camps.
Avi Melamed: It's not one solid, you know, conglomerate definition.
Avi Melamed: And and and again, the purpose of bringing this information, like all other information and perspectives that we are exposing you to, is to fertilize a constructive, that a discussion that is constructive
Avi Melamed: and and those segments. And there is a reason why we are so nuanced in our perspectives and going to these niches because they're totally absent from the discussion.
Avi Melamed: And so it's kind of like resulting in a very flat.
Avi Melamed: non-constructive discussion. And that's 1 of the things we want to change.
Avi Melamed: So I hope I answered your question.
Avi Melamed: Great.
Avi Melamed: Okay, Samantha.
Samantha: Hello! I was just wondering in the idea of trying to understand the opposition, and like what other people are talking about. I feel like there's an element that we as like itme fellows have like yet to discuss is like the
Samantha: component of the violence that's happening and the actual war and the deaths that are happening. Because I think that's a big part that comes from the opposition. And I'm wondering how that plays into Israeli politics and people's position on Zionism, how the actual, like violence and events of the war impacts where they land on their support for Israel
Avi Melamed: So you're talking about positions within Israeli public opinion, vis-a-vis, the violence
Samantha: Yes, how the violence plays, how the view on the actual war events, how that affects people's, you know political ideology, and where they lay like
Samantha: or wise.
Avi Melamed: It's it's an interesting, I would say. Sort of a loop
Avi Melamed: like, in a way, you know, Carl said. It's a chicken and egg in a way. But
Avi Melamed: roughly speaking, look, I would say something like that. I I would say that.
Avi Melamed: I'll I'll say the exceptional. I will focus on the exceptional, because that will in indicate what is the what is the major thing? But the exceptional is that
Avi Melamed: within a small segment of Israeli Jewish camp. And I'm referring to the ultra national right wing
Avi Melamed: and the concept of violence as a mean to decisively end the conflict that that concept is common
Avi Melamed: and is, is, is adopted, and it's I would even say, priest in that segment.
Avi Melamed: But again, as I said, this is the exceptional. This is something that actually, by the exceptional, you can understand what is the non exceptional
Avi Melamed: and the non exceptional, of course, is the the fact that overwhelmingly majority of Israelis, I would say.
Avi Melamed: are. And I'm talking about. Both Jews and Arabs, are are clearly
Avi Melamed: leaning towards a solution, and not through the use of violence is is a mean to to
Avi Melamed: end the conflict.
Avi Melamed: I would definitely emphasize that when you look at the
Avi Melamed: dominate discussion within Israeli Jews, let alone Israeli Arabs.
Avi Melamed: In that regard you will find that the the more common
Avi Melamed: expression or narratives within most of the Israelis, including, of course, Jews and Arabs, is the one that says
Avi Melamed: there is no, there is no military solution, there is no solution to violence.
Avi Melamed: There is a great frustration and and and disappointment and concern that
Avi Melamed: we are caught in an endless loop of bloodshed, which is very tragic. This is one other thing.
Avi Melamed: but the in the context of like violence, or praising violence or looking at violence as the method to end the conflict
Avi Melamed: overwhelmingly. Israeli, both Jews and Arabs definitely do not support it. They do, they do support, or they do want to.
Avi Melamed: They see a peaceful solution.
Avi Melamed: And so this is at the level of the of the design
Avi Melamed: on the level of the reality. There is a conflict that is going on.
Avi Melamed: and I think it's an interesting, for example, to see that today, with a specific situation, with the what happens in Gaza Street
Avi Melamed: and within Israeli public opinion you will, you will find very across the board, you know.
Avi Melamed: voices that says we have to stop this war
Avi Melamed: because that continuation of the war is not going to bring back the the hostages
Avi Melamed: and continuation of the war is causing death and destruction
Avi Melamed: both for Israelis and Palestinians. So you hear those voices?
Avi Melamed: And and again I mean going back to the main issue of the discussion in the West. You know.
Avi Melamed: people that are talking about violence in conflict and conflict. Conflict is violent. It's violent. Violence is a bad thing.
Avi Melamed: But
Avi Melamed: you know, trying to kind of like make violence is one sided thing is again something that is
Avi Melamed: very destructive in the context of the discussion.
Avi Melamed: Violence is violence, full stop.
Avi Melamed: And and it's not good.
Avi Melamed: So again, it's these are things that
Avi Melamed: are very basic of. I would say common sense, that to a large extent are a little bit absent from the discussion today in the Western circuits, and they have to be brought back.
Avi Melamed: There is a need to bring back what we call the common sense.
Avi Melamed: Okay? So if there are no more questions over the term of 3,
Avi Melamed: so I want to thank you for the participation.
Avi Melamed: Maya? Please says, only please stay on and I want to wish you a good week.
Avi Melamed: Successful one. Stay well, and our next week on next Sunday we are hosting.
Avi Melamed: This is an extended session, Maya reminds me. Thank you. So please make yourself available on time
Avi Melamed: our guest educator is Mr. Hussein Abdel Hussein. Interesting story, interesting perspectives.
Avi Melamed: Regarding some of the most significant developments in the region in the last couple of decades. And the way they impacted
Avi Melamed: the the story of the conflict.
Avi Melamed: Thank you so much. Have a good day and have a good week bye. Bye.
Raihaana: Thank you, Avi. This was incredible.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Bye, bye, take care.
Avi Melamed: Thank you. Bye.
Avi Melamed: Oh, yeah. Did they? 0 always here.