Heated exchange: Former Israeli intelligence official vs Afshin Rattansi on Iran, Gaza, & More | RT

Heated exchange: Former Israeli intelligence official vs Afshin Rattansi on Iran, Gaza, & More | RT

On this episode of Going Underground, we speak to Avi Melamed, former Senior Israel Intelligence Official and advisor to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. In a heated exchange, Afshin Rattansi challenges him on Israel’s bombing of Syria and Netanyahu’s support for ISIS and Al Qaeda against Bashar Al-Assad, former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert saying that Israel is close to a civil war, Iran’s reported successes in destroying economic and military targets inside Israel, the Muslim world’s outrage at Israel for its atrocities and genocide in Gaza, the Iranian people’s demand for nuclear weapons as a deterrent against Israel, Jews in Israel being unsafe while Jews in Iran are safe, Iran’s relations with the GCC, and much more.

Transcript:

(00:07) I’m Ashen Ratansi. Welcome back to Going Underground broadcasting all around the world from the UAE. Tomorrow, the UN Security Council meets to debate multilateralism and the peaceful settlement of disputes as war engulfs this region with Anglo-American armed Israeli air strikes pounding Lebanon, Syria, and Gaza, where the genocide continues.
(00:26) Since May, UK US EU armed Israel has killed over 800 Palestinians at so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation weaponized aid sites as famine takes hold of Gaza’s besieged and starving population. Meanwhile, Trump and Netanyahu instead of ceasefire appear to have organized creation of a concentration camp in the ruins of Rafa near Egypt.
(00:46) Concentration camp was what former Israeli Prime Minister Ehoud Olut called it. Joining me now from Tel Aviv is Abby Malamemed, a former Israeli intelligence official who was a senior adviser to Hood Oli, thanks so much for coming on. I want to get on to Gaza, of course, but uh in the past few days, and I should say this has been recorded before any imminent restarting of wars as regards Yemen with Israel, Iran with Israel, uh Lebanon with Israel, um and certainly Syria with Israel.
(01:18) What was your reaction when you saw Netanyahu’s trial interrupted by Netanyahu’s decision to strike the heart of Damascus? The um Syrian government, it might not be there by the time this is actually being broadcast, said strongly condemns in the harshest terms the treacherous Israeli aggression that targeted government institutions, flagrant assault.
(01:43) Galani, the old ISIS al-Qaeda man, no longer friends with the Israeli government. I don’t think they have been ever friends with the Israeli government. Let’s remember is coming from the hub of ISIS and al-Qaeda. We all know what ISIS and al-Qaeda stands for. So among different um aspects of their ideology, they’re also very hostile towards not only the state of Israel, by the way, but also towards Jews generally and to and to Muslims.
(02:13) I think most of Islam would say well in fairness there are those famous pictures of no less than on the Golan Heights he’s called Galani uh where Netanyahu of course treated ISIS and al-Qaeda fighters in the war on Assad. I mean surely as an intelligence official as a former intelligence official you recognize that Israel was intimately involved in the overthrow of Assad by funding and supporting ISIS and al-Qaeda as well as Turkey.
(02:41) I don’t know that I would necessarily hold of Netanyahu with them. Look, um I want to be very clear about it. What led to the downfall of Assad regime in the end of the day was the collapse of the Iranianbacked axis, particularly the defeat of the Hezbollah. We should remember that in the end of the day, the major power that enabled Julani to take power in Syria was Turkey.
(03:07) Erdogan we all know that Turkey is an Erdogan is coming from the Sunni Islamic camp similar to Al Gulani even though Julani come from a different branch of the Sunni Islamic radical ideology. Uh it was arrogant in the end of the day, meaning the Turkish military that supported the HTS uh the Turkish military that basically control parts of the northern part of Syria that enabled Julani and his people in the end of the day to launch this offensive uh in the end of 2024 and within two weeks to bring down Assad regime in Syria. You’ve
(03:44) previously praised Erdogan’s geopolitical uh smarts uh many times. How far do you think he’ll go to defend and I understand that for our viewers this is being recorded before Galani may have already left. How far would he go to defend these exal-Qaeda ISIS people in the face of uh opposition not only from Israel but obviously also maybe from Donald Trump because they were reportedly reconsidering the terrorism designation.
(04:18) How far would Turkey go to oppose Israel, the United States, Iran? It has to be said because in a way Iran and Israel on the same side of this. Well, indeed, Erdogan here is in a very difficult position because remember Turkey is the second largest member of NATO. Um, and so Ergonogan has to, you know, run between the drops, the raindrops, sort of speaking.
(04:39) We know that Erugan is a very sure politician. He knows how to monetize situations. I think this is a very challenging situation for him from different perspectives. Um I think that at this point he will wait to see what the the exact developments are following the um events in Syria. Uh but I would also mention in in that regard something very significant that we should take into consideration when we talk about Erdogan and these are the Kurds in Syria.
(05:06) Uh definitely uh seemingly the last couple of days uh just recently there has been uh sort of like an agreement or announcement of the PKK that they are basically laying down their weapons and there was this uh symbolic act of Kurdish fighters laying down their weapons in the northern part of of Iraq. I should just say the US also withdrew funding under the uh new Trump administration but go on. Yeah.
(05:32) Yeah. And so I think that one of the major thing that Ergon has to very closely monitor and look following this recent developments in Syria particularly is in the context of the Kurdish autonomy in the northeast part of Syria. In other words, there are many different variants moving parts here and this picture that Erdogan definitely has to take into consideration.
(05:52) I don’t think that he’s facing any easy choice in front of him. Now let’s get to uh Israel of course which has bombed uh four capitals in this region. Sana, Beirut, Damascus, and Tehran in the past six weeks. No word on the missing 400 kilos of uranium highly enriched uranium. Is that a big topic there? Uh do you think Netanyahu was partly doing the Damascus operation as a method of distraction? What’s the mood there in uh Israel after having been bombed in the past few weeks uh perhaps uh more bombed than ever in its short history? Well,
(06:35) what we see is a very dramatic shift in the Israeli strategic policy. To put it in a nutshell, here is the the essence of the change. Prior to October 7, the Israeli strategic policy security policy was to a large extent characterized by um restraint and containing in in But go on. Yeah, obviously not restrained when it comes to uh Lebanon and to Palestine.
(07:02) It’s been it’s been very restrained because just as a reminder uh the Hezbollah allocated two tents in the Israeli territory that was before October 7 and Israeli government did not take a military actions though it could because it was very clear that the Hezbollah was violating the United Nation formal line.
(07:23) uh Israel did not do that because it was part of this Israeli hesitant uh to take such a decisive uh uh action and by the way it was the same in the context of August but just the same following October 7 what we see today is a totally change of the Israeli strategic security policy and to make it very short I would say that if before October 7 it was first about let’s think and talk about it and contemplate it and maybe then we have to shoot we’ll shoot today It’s the opposite.
(07:54) First shooting and then talking. Yeah. I mean, I don’t know what your feelings were about the failure of intelligence as regards October the 7th, but uh as I said uh I quoted your old boss Hood Almood and uh he’s been very clear to say Israel is now close to civil war and obviously Netanyahu’s coalition uh he’s now minority government leader.
(08:19) his government might be over by the time this has been broadcast. Um, his context for calling Israel out as a civil war has been Netanyahu’s undermining of Israeli institutions, the sacking of Shinbet’s boss, Ronan Bar. I don’t know what you thought of Ronan Bar’s sacking uh the head of Shinbet, the um equivalent to Britain’s MI5 or the US FBI.
(08:42) Is it close to civil war Israel? No, I don’t think so. Look, Israel is going through a very sign significant political crisis. Uh it’s very clear, but I don’t think I don’t think that we are going closer to a civil war. I think that um there is a need to understand the many layers of the Israeli fabric um and lacking the understanding of those layers obviously kind of like I would say uh compromise your ability to try to evaluate what’s going to happen ahead.
(09:14) We are in a very significant political crisis but I don’t think that we are heading towards a civil war. I mean the economy is clearly in ruins. I saw the elat port shut down in the past few days. Complete cease cessation of operations from Sunday. What’s your understanding of the uh results of the Iranian attack on Israel? There have been reports even in the Rupert Murdoch Wall Street Journal that the volleys of missiles coming from Iran were increasingly uh reaching their targets at higher rates and uh the targets that were hit. I mean it says quite a lot
(09:56) about the Iron Dome, so-called Iron Dome, doesn’t it? Uh obviously the Whitesman Institute, the Bazan oil refinery hifer power plant, the um IDF command center near Saroka hospital in Bashiba, the Hideera power plant. I don’t know was the IDF headquarters at Kira Base hit? Was Neverin Air Base hit? Uh Telnor air base.
(10:21) I mean the sourcing on this obviously there is no freedom of speech in Israel. You have no freedom of speech there. You have the complete blackout of news about IDF soldiers that have been killed in the past few days, let alone the targets that were hit by Iran. What was your reaction? What did it feel like as a former Israeli intelligence official to realize the Iron Dome was failing? Well, it may surprise you to know that unlike your very decisive observation, there is a freedom of speech.
(10:46) Actually, I’ve made my opinion very clear in different circles in Israel for the last couple of days. Well, just the same. Um, you just said it in a way that I think has to be re reiterated. You mentioned many targets in Israel. Um, all of those targets except maybe for one or two were civilians. Now, here is the situation.
(11:07) You got an Iranian regime, very brutal one, that has been building this huge missile capacity capacities and drone capacities. This regime is not only threatening Israel, as you clearly very know. uh that regime attacked Saudi Arabia and that regime attack United Arab Emirates and so on and so on and that regime after all those years of parades and military innovations basically now engage in a 12 days war with Israel and he launched hundreds and hundreds of ballistic missiles and thousands of drones because this is the
(11:40) best of its arsenal. We all know that the Müller regime has been significantly defeated in this war. The region knows that. So with all due respect to the reports of course when you you shortterm hundreds of missiles of ballistic missiles you refer to the Iron Dome there is no 100% seal but we are looking at a more than 90% capacities or successful performances of that of that system and here is something to think about imagine that there was no Iron Dome and every single Iranian ballistic missile would have hit Israeli cities because it
(12:20) was launching and direct only the hypersonic ones in fairness. No, not the hypersonic, the whole missile and the drones. Imagine there was no any interceptive system. What do you think would be the re the repercussions and consequences of something like that? Melan, I’ll stop you there. More from the former Israeli intelligence official and author of Inside the Middle East, entering a new era after this break.
(13:02) Welcome back to Going Underground. I’m still here with former Israeli intelligence officer Abi Manamed. Abby, we were talking in part one about uh Iran and uh Israel, which might be at war by the time this is broadcast again. You did mention the United Arab Emirates. I should say the UAE in the past few days.
(13:22) Uh the foreign ministry said the UAE strongly condemns dangerous escalation in southern Syria firmly denounced the Israeli air strikes in the area. NBS, Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia on the record for calling out Israeli genocide, his word. The entire global south of course completely against Israel as witnessed from the Bogatar conference in Colombia and onwards and all polls show a uh hatred of Israel right across Western Europe and uh in the United States a majority with an unfavorable opinion of it.
(13:58) So uh Iran does have actually quite friendly relations despite what one might think with GCC countries. The foreign minister visits from time to time. If uh Iran is reportedly planning right now on its next target lists for Israel, uh how safe is Israel’s Deona nuclear weapons lab, the lab famously exposed by Morai Venunu, is it safe given that I know you were giving me statistics in part one of 90% defense from Iron Dome.
(14:30) I should say even NATO press says 85% was more like it in the recent Iranian bombing of Israel. I’m not so much concerned about the Muna. I’m much more concerned about the Iranian missiles that are targeting Tel Aviv or city. By the way, the Iranians also shot at Jerusalem uh which by the way in Jerusalem you got the Haram Sharif which is the third holiest site of the Muslims as you probably know.
(14:55) So it’s a particularly sensitive site in such a small area to hit to either way. But then I suppose those that don’t like your country would say all’s fair in war. I think Saladin is a perhaps a uh a precedent as regards destruction of holy sites in that sense. But yeah, go on. Yeah.
(15:17) So I basically think that Muslims should be much more concerned about what’s going to happen if an Iranian missile is going to hit Haram Sharif in Jerusalem. No, but Abby, come on. You know, you know, the entire Muslim world is watching the pictures from Gaza. I mean, in the UAE, I’ve got here Gaza kids queuing up for medical supplements, killed every day.
(15:34) Uh, the entire Arab world, the Muslim world. Yes. Up to Indonesia and so on. Everyone can see what’s going on. Uh, and, uh, those countries that didn’t like Iran perhaps, they were cheering Iran on, too. How safe is uh, well, you you said Deona you’re fine with? I I don’t I’m again as I said before I’m much more concerned about the missiles the Iranians are shooting in populated cities.
(16:00) Why? Because when such a missile is landing in a populated city like Tel Aviv, imagine that New York has been attacked with a missile with a one tone of explosives. Think about the collateral damage. Think about the panic. Think about the destruction. We understand because we can see what Israel is doing to Gaza, a enclosed place of two million people, of course, even more densely populated than than Israel.
(16:26) But I’m interested why you’re not concerned about Deona because the radiation clouds from there. I mean, I know Israel didn’t seem that overly concerned about hitting nuclear sites in Iran, which could have had a devastating impact if they had hit Busher famously, and that’s why Israel presumably didn’t target it.
(16:44) Why should we not be worried about Iran Israeli nuclear weapons production sites being destroyed? I don’t know what’s going on inside the demona this place that you mentioned. I don’t know if they’re manufacturing their nuclear weapons or ice cream. But that’s not the point. The point you ask me if I’m concerned about Deona and I basically said I’m not so much concerned about Dimona.
(17:04) I’m much more concerned about the Iranian missiles that are targeting massively civilian population. Thanks God. and as as are all Israelis obviously. Um I suppose the demon element points again to freedom of speech. It’s obviously Israelis are not allowed to talk about the nuclear weapons program because of the lack of freedom of speech in in Israel.
(17:25) Uh but more importantly perhaps is now the desire by the Iranian public perhaps against their own government for nuclear weapons. Uh we spoke to someone ahead of the Rio bricks summit where BRICS countries discussed the need for nuclear weapons now that uh uh deterrence theory has been thrown on its head. Clearly Israel would not have attacked Iran if it had nuclear weapons.
(17:48) Is it your understanding that no one knows where the 400 kilos of highlyenriched uranium that Iran has is and that Iran may now be purchasing uh weaponry and uh I know the Russian and Chinese cargo planes all in the past few days have been pouring into Tyran but whether they may be getting it from North Korea.
(18:11) I think that the Iranian people are very much concerned with water and electricity and food on the table much more than I should say I lived in Iran for a while. I don’t think they were very much conf I think that’s interesting that your view of Iran is that they have problems over food and and water. Is that the kind of propaganda in Israel about Iran, this kind of pro superstate that has managed to survive sanctions since 1979 that clearly even NATO commentators, I think people even in your Israeli press accept that Iran has never been more
(18:49) united in wanting to defend the Islamic Republic, let alone want to go further than Peshki and their leader, who was seen by some to be overconiliatory with Tucker Carlson in his of you. They want nuclear weapons. They want to be able to threaten Israel as soon as possible. Look, we all know that the major threat of the Iranian people is not Israel.
(19:11) You know, it’s this Iranian regime. We all remember what happened with this regime killing. No, no. I mean, I don’t want to go. Yeah. Abs. I mean, that’s your viewpoint. I’m talking about what everyone uh is pretty normal is most people would see that Israeli and United States bombing of Iran would result in a people that would be united around their uh system and government just as I presume October the 7th united uh quite a few Israelis around Netanyahu despite him being so hated.
(19:45) Uh so what is Israel going to do now? the uh now the US and Israeli strikes on Iran have resulted in a desire for nuclear weapons by Iran. The exiting of the nuclear non-prololiferation treaty which is a necessity after all because the IAEA has been thrown out of Iran. What is Israel going to do now Iran is on the cusp of nuclear weapons? Well, to the best of my reading, I think that the major concern of Israel and the United States and by the way, of course, the Gulf States as well as you all know is not the Iranian people. It’s the Iranian regime. We are
(20:21) not concerned about the so-called what you mentioned desire of the Iranian people. Well, I do think the Israeli sorry, I do think the Iranian government Iranian government never wanted nuclear weapons as seen by the constant toing and throwing with the IAEA. Uh we’re talking about the Iranian people wanting to protect themselves and wanting a deterrent in opposition to the views of Ayatollahi who installed that fatwa saying it was theologically wrong to have nuclear weapons.
(20:53) Is there no recognition in Israel that Iran wants nuclear weapons now the Iranian public? No, I don’t think that in Israel they view the Iranian people as the one that want weapons to protect themselves from Israel. I think as I said as I stated you just bombed you just bombed Iran. Yes, that’s correct. So it’s perfectly natural for a population like Iran to then say we need nuclear weapons to deter Israel from doing this again and the United States which also has nuclear weapons like Israel.
(21:23) Yes. But I think that as I said before I think that for the Iranian average people it’s much more significant to have water and electricity and gas. Sorry, I since when do Iranians not have water and electricity? It’s the Israelis that don’t have water and electricity. It’s the synagogues in Israel that have to be guarded.
(21:44) The synagogues in Iran, they don’t have to be guarded for anti-semitism, do they? Jews in Iran are safe. Jews in Israel are not safe, which is arguably perhaps why 83,000 Israel now hides the figures. Jews are leaving the country because it’s not a safe country for Jews. What do you mean? They need water and electricity.
(22:05) There’s a demand for nuclear weapons from the Iranian people. Mhm. Well, we have a different perspective on that issue clearly. By the way, uh you know, in you don’t consider it because Netanyahu and you presumably have talked about the uh desire for nuclear weapons being a danger to uh an existential danger to Israel.
(22:30) All along since the JCPOA for the past 10 years, suddenly you’re not worried anymore about Iran getting nuclear weapons, which it may be about to do. Why are you suddenly not interested? Let me let me remind you that this regime has been vowing for a long period of time way before JCPOA to eliminate Israel and the Satan. And by the way, that’s the regime that also attacked Mecca, the holiest site of the Sunni world and the Muslim world.
(22:54) So let us not let’s say let us not pretend. We know exactly what we are dealing with. This is a radical dangerous regime that oppresses his own people. Everybody knows that. It has nothing to do whether you like Iran or not like Iran. I’m talking purely from a geopolitical dispassionate uh resulting side after your attack on Iran and Donald Trump’s attack on Iran.
(23:17) I don’t have to love Iran to say to say that. We also know that NBS has called out Israel as a genocidal place. Why does Sa why do Israelis still go on about the Abraham Accords with respect to Saudi Arabia when if anything one could expect Saudi Arabia now to seek nuclear weapons to protect Saudi Arabia and as you say the holiest sites of Islam from a from a Israeli attack on Saudi Arabia and certainly those that talk about a greater Israel in Netanyah coalition want to invade Saudi Arabia according to what they’ve said
(23:54) but nobody wants to invade Saudi Arabia. But I can assure you that in the inner circles of the Saudi government, nobody shared a tear to see the Iranian regime beaten so hardly. And Saudi Arabian government’s official position was to condemn the Israeli bombing. And as you know, the United States could not use any of its bases in Saudi Arabia or the UAE.
(24:15) I doubt that very much. But just the same, you know, in the end of the day, we’re looking at, as you say, geostrategic. Saudi Arabia knows exactly who is their enemy and who is their friend. And let me share with you a secret. The Saudis are by far much more concerned about the Iranian regime than Israel.
(24:34) Because reminding you again, it’s Iran that attacked physically Saudi Arabia causing a significant damage to its oil infrastructure. It’s Iran that attacked the Mecca holy sites. And it’s the when when was this vows vows to the rule of when was this when did Iran attack Mecca? It was a couple of times 2019 2020. Um there has been missiles launched as you probably I think I was living in Iran at that time. I didn’t see that.
(25:05) Anyway, um obviously as I said uh the uh opinion of most of the world is that uh it’s a genocidal state that you worked for as an Israeli intelligence official. What was your reaction and what’s the reaction over there to the fact that even the New York Times is promoting the Jewish genocide scholar Omare Barov? Uh he says and this was promoted all around the NATO world that what you’re doing is genocide.
(25:35) No, no, no real consciousness in Israel as the genocide continues in Gaza of uh of what all around the world is obvious. You don’t think it’s a genocide in Gaza, do you? No, it’s not a genocide in Gaza. It’s a very What do you think of Bour? What do you think of this professor of genocide studies? Mr. Mir made a very not wise comment, but let me say something about this genocide.
(26:00) you know um in the end of the day we all know who has to bear responsibility and this is Hamas. Hamas is holding his own people respon as a as a shelter. Hamas launched this war. Hamas is using his people as a shelter and you know you’re talking about genocide and you of course I have a different perspective. I respect your opinion which is of course totally wrong. But let me tell you something.
(26:23) You know, as long as I don’t think No, as as long as people in the world will continue. You supported Hamas when you were an intelligence official, presumably. No, not necessarily. I didn’t know that you are so familiar with my career, but that may surprise you to know that. But here is the point.
(26:43) As long as you will continue to accept Hamas and label Israel as the ultimate evil, I want to share with you something from deep my work, but you cannot quote me. You’re not going to help the Palestinians by doing that. Actually, what you’re doing is totally the opposite. The more you are supporting Hamas and exempting Hamas from responsibility, the more the Palestinian will pay the price, the more Israel will pay the price.
(27:07) Let me just remind you that the Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas himself was cursing Hamas in a very tough language, basically holding Hamas responsible for the catastrophe it has inflicted upon its brothers and sisters. I’m Avi Melamemed. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Heated exchange: Former Israeli intelligence official vs Afshin Rattansi on Iran, Gaza, & More | RT

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